Zimmerframe: If the World didn’t suck, we’d all fall off!
That made me laugh - first time I noticed it!
Glad you like it
, and its so true too…
Been thinking about this for a while. Is there any strength at all in the windscreen pillars, are most of the chrome ‘loop’ roll bars just cosmetic?
It crossed my mind the other day, if the car rolled over I think the best I could do is tuck in and hope for the best!!
I had a 2000 Merc CLK Conv’ before the MX and one day I went over a hump back bridge a bit too quick, there was an almighty bang and it wasnt until I checked the mirrors that I realised what it was. The rear ‘fake headrests’ had deployed as the rear wheels had left the ground for a millisecond. Fantastic technology, although it cost me £45 to get the headrests wound back down at a Merc specialists LOL…small price to pay.
The A-pillers, in principle, can support the weight of the car, but in the NA/NB, they are a product of mid-80s CAD, and were never actually tested (there was no rollover requirement). The style bars are that; cosmetic only. Proper rollbars require fixing to the chassis at at least 4 different points.
MX5 NB roll tests (unofficial):
NA rolltest:
This is sort of new to me; the original NHTSA crash testing of the Miata:
Germany 1983, proud owners of a UK Tax free MG Metro Turbo, anyway the Wife Hils, and I were returning from a shopping trip en route to RAF Laarbruch when a Ford Taunus pulled out in front of us, it should have stopped because we were on the priority road, result was my car was a write off and Hils suffered internal damage to her right knee where the heater controls ended up and me , well broken Pelvis, various cuts and bruises, later post accident concussion, We both were taken to the local Krankenhaus where I ended up in intensive care for a week and Hils was released home that night, and as for the Dutch couple who were in the other car, both went home that same day with no injuries, later I was transferred to RAF Hospital Wegberg and the Hils who suffered from internal bleeding and ruptured tenons which the Krankenhaus missed, joined me there sharing a side ward together. We both were off work for several months me as a Fireman for 6 months and Hils as a AATC for 3 months until we were both passed fit for duty. Prior to this and since I have had two motorcycle accidents, the first caused a broken collar bone and the second when a car pulled out in front of me leaving me no option but to sail across his bonnet but nothing broken, I only felt like that I had been Tap danced on by an Elephant.
AT posted some photo’s from the States a few years back, they all showed what happens if the car rolls - the windscreen pillars either partially collapse in milder rolls, or fully collapse in more serious ones. A Sottish driver - also a few years back- had an idiot (driving with no shoes) pull out in front of him from a side road, he had no time to stop or anywhere to go except the verge, which he went for. Unfortunately he hit a bump and the car took off, and rolled several times. All he had was not a full roll bar, or a style bar, just a brace bar across the seat belt towers, but it stood up enough that it cleared the bodywork - they ducked (he had a passenger) and though the car finished upside down, they both got out safely, with just minor cuts and bruises. I would say the gods were with them both that day. When fitting the ‘Deuce’ bar to mine, I had to remove all the side trim around the seat belt towers, and frankly what I saw unerved me - boy was I glad the Duece is a six point fixing - Bottom of tower on seat belt reel lower fixing, Top of tower (this fixing serves to strengthen the tower) and rear brace point above the wheel well. X2. The bar is built like a Sherman tank!
I don’t know if anyone has ever crash tested a style bar - of any make, but I wouldn’t put my faith in the seat belt towers. (or a style bar, most of which fix to the tower.) Basically, the tower is there to carry the seat belt runner, and people can argue with me all day it’s safe, - I would still disagree.Yes it’s adequate for the seat belt runner, but not for any crash force, where the height of a style bar would act like lever on the folded over top of it. Both Brace and style bars do help to firm up the cockpit, but they are a ‘style’ accessory, if it comes to a roll over - IMHO.
The Deuce is built in America, as such, to be track legal it has to carry an SCCA approval, which it doesn’t, but the ‘Sport’ bar also made by Bethania Garage is SCCA approved - you take your choice. I didn’t buy it for track use (though I did do trackdays at the time) - it was road near misses that made me buy the bar. - Listed further back on here! Despite the SCCA approval, it isn’t accepted over here, if you happened to want to go racing, you have to have a full cage.
SCCA-approved Autopower street rollbars fix the main hoop to the seatbelt towers. Mazda engineers have stated that the seatbelt towers are a suitable point for rollbar hoop attachment.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/563884/2003-mazda-miata-mx-5/page-5
The issue about the majority of style bars is how the rear stays, if they exist, are attached. In conventional rollbars, they pass through the shelf, and bolt to the boot floors. On the Brown-Davis bar (CAMS approved) the stays form part of a plate that rests on the shelf.
SCCA-approved doesn’t really mean anything. This doesn’t mean the rollbar has been tested, or that any kind of QC system is applied. All it means is that the rollbar conforms to the general regulations laid out in a handbook; a bit like someone stating a rollbar conforms with the MSA Bluebook. Besides FIA cages, only the Bossfrog bar has in anyway been “tested”, and to be honest, its claims are suspect, since this was a test not observed by the SCCA, and conducted by an engineer who re-interpretedthe SCCA’s intended testing protocol. Plus, if you were being really picky, how would you know every BF would react in the same way; there is no evidence of batch testing
http://www.bossfrog.biz/pdf/BF.Double.Hoop.Testing.pdf
Bethania Garage bars are not SCCA certified; they are SCCA compliant, subject to scrutineer approval.
I think everybody has a different idea as to what might constitute a near-miss or near death experiance…I have certainly had a few probably the only really frightening ones were:
-
Being a passenger pre-seat belt law
in a 1980s Mini as it cartwheeled end to end a few times when it ran out of grip, went wide then hit the offside on a banked hedge in the lanes and took off. -
Driving a Vectra Estate on a very busy motorway and was just changing lanes to overtake a concrete mixer wagon just before my exit, the cars in the outside lane in front of me hit the brakes very hard because somebody up ahead had dozed off and thrown a load of big French drain material onto the road, I hit the car in front into the next one, got hit from behind then got slewed towards the nearside where upon the truck I was overtaking as good as removed the front end of the Vectra for good measure.
-
Rolling my Rallycross Nova GTE on an empty airfield during winter testing and being stuck upside down by my ankle awaiting the ensuing fire, my
wingmanwas sat in his Land-Rover readingFarmers-Weeklyand didnt see that the car was on its roof
Hi Gerryn
i have just read and re-read your posts and all i can say is what a great read i am deffinatly never going to top any of your near scrapes i think after reading most of this thread i am of to my local mazda repair shop to ask for all round airbag conversion and speed limiter
and even the man with the red flag to walk in front of me.
Well lets see.
First one, about 1988, riding home on my old Kawazaki GPz, just entered a small mini roundabout at about 30mph, to go straight ahead, when a car suddenly flies past me from my left. It was that close that I was that certain I was going to hit him, that I closed my eyes and hung on tight. 2 seconds later I opened them, remembered to breath and carried on. No idea how I missed him.
Different bike in 1989, hit gravel going round a roundabout. The front wheel slid out from under me, I corrected that but had to put so much effort into it, that it spat me off to the right. I can remeber flying towards a black Vauxhall Cavalier. Thankfully I missed.
And finally. On a very wet day about five years ago, I was driving my 81 Vette over to Corby. I came up to a roundabout and turned left, then put my foot down… a little too much! before I could even do anything, the car spun to the left, through a hole in the hedge that someone else had already made. (probably doing the same) and then into the freshly cut but very wet corn field. I had to ring my Dad to pull the car out with his Discovery. However, thanks to wet and freshly cut field, the car had a rather effective under body scrub. Saved me doing any prep for the waxoyling.
None so far in the 5 and would like to keep it that way.
That’s a bit extreme - - get everyone else to have a guy with a red flag!
The thing is, the more near misses you have, the more conscious you are of what can happen, after a while it becomes automatic, you see things sometimes before they actually happen, but memory tells you to take avoiding action - if they don’t happen, fine, if they do, well you were waiting for it.
Thank God for reflexes! - and for a car with pinpoint steering, the right gears and B - - good brakes - thank you Mazda!
Just thought of two more!
Was driving home from work in Derby in a company Escort - heading towards Heanor, where our first home was. There’s an easy left bend by a church, fortunately (for me) with a fairly large flat grass verge in front of it on my left. Just before the bend, an Anglia came round the other way, suddenly hit the curb on his side, swung back violently towards me, and rolled several times. I went for the verge, and stopped. The Anglia stopped on it’s side finally, about 50 feet further down the road, the guy inside openened the door, struggled out, and limped back down the road towards me. He seemed to be O/K, except obviously for shock, his face was white as a sheet.
I said “Are you all right?” and he replied "Yes thanks - that’s the last time I try lighting a fag with a match, it fell on the floor, and I went to pick it up - - "
I then said (perhaps thoughtlessly) “Did you switch the ignition off?” - petrol was leaking from the bonnet. “Dunno” he replied, and he staggered back to the car to check, while I was desperately flagging down cars coming up to the bend.
Another - this time in the Tiger, driving home from Derby on the A52 - to where we live now. Weather, some snow, freezing. Out of Derby there’s a dip where a petrol station is, and also a side junction, sometimes can be a bit hairy as cars shoot out from either place. Suddenly the cars in front slammed the brakes on - so did I. I suddenly realised the road was covered in ice, and instantly I thought I was going to hit the guy in front. AFAIK I didn’t steer one way or the other, but suddenly found myslf sitting in the car - parked neatly on the centre verge! The guy behind me would certainly have hit me, but my space saved him, he stopped in time and stared at me with a quizical look that seemed to be saying “how the hell did you do that?”
I just sat there grinning, it was so funny! To this day, I don’t know how it happened, but if there is a God, he was with me that day. Lady Luck? Dunno.
H’mm So F A G is banned too? What would happen if I’d said queer?
Now we know - - - !
Bit off topic - this one isn’t about life, but points threatening, driving home from Derby sparked another memory :
At the Derby end of the A52 (heading towards Nottingham) there used to be an island - now replaced by a flyover. Went onto this from Nottingham Road out of Derby, and a cop was just giving some poor guy a ticket. Instinct told me he might decide to hit the A52, so I made sure my speedo was below 70.
Sure enough, he appeared in my rear view mirror and proceeded to follow me for quite a while. I did as I should, kept the limit - in fact was doing 68 most of the time, never went to 70. Signalled as I should, when passing cars in the slow lane, and signalling again when I pulled back in. (I always do this anyway, in case you think I don’t!) I kept one eye on him, and one on the road ahead, and I noticed he was spending more time watching cars going towards Derby than watching me, or the traffic ahead. About 1/2 mile before the M1 Junctionj, I caught up with two cars following a motorbike, which was obviously going slower than they were. I flashed to pull out, but then realised the lead car was up close to the biker and would probably pull out to pass, so I flashed at him and applied the brakes slightly to give him time to pass.
Next thing I know, the Cops lights are flashing, and he’s gesturing at me to pull over. I braked, signalled left, and pulled onto the hard shoulder, where he stopped behid me. He got out the car, and came up to my side door, so I opened the window and said “Is there a problem?” “You bet, he snarled, I’ve followed you all the way from the island back there and you were consistently doing over 70” - I replied, “I beg your pardon, but I watched you behind me and my speedo never read more than 68”. He answered - “You couldn’t have been watching me, you just stuck your brakes on to slow down, - that’s when you woke up that I was behind you” (My hackles were rising - - - - ) I did some rapid thinking - like this idiot had been watching cars going the other way, suddenly looked ahead, saw my brake lights and nearly wet his pants, now I’ve got to pay for it. I choked back the obvious answer - “If I was doing more than 70, how come you followed me for over 6 miles before stopping me?”
I tried to explain to him what the circumstances were, but he wouldn’t listen; however, I think he realised I knew more than I was saying, so he just said “I’ll let you off this time, but get that speedo checked immediately, or I’ll get you next time”.
I did that, next day, the mechanic who checked the speedo said “It’s well within limits, about 5% low, is all”. I did think of writing to the Chief Constable, but knew I would be a marked man afterwards, so kept my mouth shut - till now. (it’s forty odd years ago).
As I said way back on this thread - it always pays to keep your eye on the rear view mirror, incidents don’t just happen in front!
One winter evening in 1989, I slid off an unlit farm road in north yorkshire. I was driving a Ford escort van with two working dogs in cages in the back. It had snowed heavily, around 6 inches, and I was doing no more than 10 mph. Anyway, the car ended up sliding down the bank before settling upside down on the river bed (approx 8 foot deep). The cages smashed the back window as it sunk. That action caused it to immediately fill with black, icy, fast flowing water. The dogs, one gsd, one yellow lab, were in a flap and I was hanging upside down on the seatbelt inertia lock. Had to push the clutch in with my chin and grab some air before using the leatherman on my belt to cut the seatbelt material. I got out via the wind down window on the drivers door and undid the dog cage to let them swim out of the smashed rear screen. Getting the dogs out was a mission and I nearly got dragged by the car. I won’t make that mistake again. Not for dogs anyway. I was pretty laid back about it until around 4 hours later that evening. Had some very bad shakes from delayed shock.
I have a couple of pant wetting near misses, one on the A52 (Gerryn’s road of choice!) but only one where I was driving.
The first was on the road from hell (M25) coming back from a scout camp (I was all of 15!) sat in the second row of a mini bus in the middle lane. The car in the outer lane had a blow out veered first right into the central reservation before something in the nose caught the barrier and turned him sideways in the road directly in front of us! How the guy did it to this day I have no idea but he appeared to have the lightning thinking to put the car in reverse as he shot backwards across the traffic before rear ending into the embankment as we drove through the space he had filled moments before infront of us! I’ll never forget the scream of the young lad who was asleep in the front seat up till the moment the driver of our vehicle stood on the brakes hard and he awoke to see the car sideways infront of him!!!
My driving near miss (there have been times when I’ve been in collisions but they’ve touch wood always been much slower and taimer!) was Derby bound returning from work in Nottingham on the A52. Approaching the M1 junction in the outer lane and passing the queue that forms at this point I suddenly saw a woman pull out the queue without indicating! with no timne to brake I figured that avoidance was the best course of action and luckily on this stretch of road there is a large tarmac apron on the central reservation before the concrete central divider. Needless to say as I hurtled through what gap was left fully on the central reservation horn blaring I felt very days of thunder inches from the concrete wall and I wonder how shocked the woman was as I shot past.
That has to be about the closest experience so far, and I hope you are never faced with that decision to save the dogs again, working or not, there’s always a deep association between dogs and their owner, as I know well from the past. The immediate instinct is to save them, they are like your children, so one reacts accordingly. I hope you didn’t get nightmares about the accident afterwards, thankfully I never did, though strangely when I owned a Chevanne, I had recurring dreams about going round a sharp left hander which was part of a slip road to a motorway, and about to smash into the back of another car which was stopped in front of me - I always woke up in a sweat - but never actually hit the car! I finally got rid of the van, and the dreams stopped. Was that premonition or lack of faith in the van?
Still think about it a lot, yes. Would I do it differently using hindsight? Yes, I wouldn’t chance it further to save dogs in future. Pretty harsh I know. But a shifting vehicle under water is way too dodgy to be messing with for a couple of animals when you have mouths to feed. After that, I always told my kids never to put themselves at risk over a dog that falls through the ice, or whatever. They’re ten a penny comparatively. Of course, they’re man’s best friend and I do agree that they should die for us should it come to that. Never kid yourself that it should be any other way. Even if you put them in that life threatening position yourself.
A couple of chaps drowned, in seperate incidents, trying to rescue their dogs which fell through the ice at a lake nearby. On one occasion one of the dogs managed to get himself out. Yes, it’s your immediate instinct to try and save them, despite the risks. You have to teach children to go against their natural grain on such matters too. Harsh as it may sound. 