My mk2 Focus is 6 years old, never garaged, used every day, all year (in fact winter tyres now fitted!). Looks like new. All the ones I looked at when I was buying one seemed fine (these were 3 years old). The wheel arches have very good plastic liners. Actually that reminds me - I never did fit the mudflaps on to it!
Of course there are so many (millions?) of Focus owners that you will read of some having problems.
Ford have now sold almost all their shares in Mazda anyway - so that’s the end of that…
Mine is obviously a 2.5 which seems more affected then earlier versions?
Certainly all drains are working fine nowadays, and the previous owner seemed quite careful about everything. The OC guys who looked at it on the Techday thought it didn’t look too bad, maybe even limited too cleaning up and respray. The actual paint is still intact and and the affected area is not very big (compared to some others I have seen) but of course impossible to say what hides underneath. Apparently it seems like the sills may have already been done once before. I cannot see it but both the Techday guys and Finishingline thought they could.
It would sure be nice to get a price closer to what you suggest, but would it still be a Proper job?
This is also where you wonder if the OC might be able to step in, considering how common this problem is, to do some research around this. Maybe have the design and the rust inspected by some proper experts on car design and manufacturing, rust prevention experts (academics?) or such. There Is obviously such knowledge available somewhere!
Surely there must be quite a considerable interest from a body shop (or MX5parts?) which could be the first in the country to offer a solution which would actually purport to be Better then the original. Surely there would be a world wide market even! Of course this should still be combined with proper care, rust prevention and such, but it would be nice to have a solid base to start with.
Regarding the various overlapping panels you mention… From basic physics (?) in school I seem to remember that capillary (?) forces are quite considerable wherever there is a tiny gap I.e water Will get sucked in there. Couldn’t these seems be seam welded shut, rust prevention treated and then proper drain holes added? To avoid water getting in where it is not supposed to be, and if it Does reach the larger cavities (condensation etc), somewhere to get rid of it?
Anyway, as a complete amateur on these things I’m happy to be corrected on the feasibility of any of these schemes!
It’s quite a complex structure in there. It has to be to be strong enough…
Cars from Japan where they don’t salt the roads don’t have anywhere near the same rust problems. You’d be amazed how good cars imported from Japan look!
It’s not the design that causes it… It’s salt… There would be little point in spending the OC’s money on a problem caused by the need in the UK to salt roads!
Well, that’s not the whole truth considering that this problem is pretty well isolated to one section of the car. The rest of the car can resist salty water well enough, but this section traps and collects it and does not get rid of it properly, so there Is something wrong with the design.
The structural strength should be a minor issue, considering that the cars Do actually still work when Major parts of this section have already rusted away. Even if we don’t manage to make it as strong as it perhaps was originally, it should still be plenty stronger then a structure which does not even exist any longer
Check the photos of some of the repair efforts, even then I guess the repair was not really because the car was about to collapse, but because it looked unsightly (and perhaps failed the MOT?). Or maybe it was both
Yes it’s MOT testers and the the DOT you need to please. They think it is important enough, so it doesn’t matter whether is is technically strong…
There’s a whole lot more structure hiding behind the sill and you might be surprised to see that the outside doesn’t always show the full story…
The sills are the perfect environment for rust… (the drains don’t clear the water to completely dry - salt is carried in solution in water so when the water evaporates it gets left behind, then gets damp again…)
The design could be better but that’s the way it is… and we have to live with it…
Well, that’s my point, Do we Really have to? Lots of people spend huge amounts of money improving their cars in many other ways (the forum is full of these), why not spend some effort improving the rust resistance? Especially considering the significants costs involved when it fails, as it does.
Surely it must be possible to identify the main faults of this design (for example by comparing it to others sills on other cars which are known to resist very well) and improve it. Maybe using some of the methods previously mentioned. It seems clear that the MX5 design (at least on my 2003) is of a particularly poor design, but surely it must be possible to figure out a way to do it better. It is ridiculous that it only lasts 4 years or so (in my case) no matter how well it may have been looked after. Many, many cars manage much better then that, so we should try to figure out some way to minimise or remove the bad parts of the design and implement better solutions.
If you consider the 2001 facelift, interim car to be a revision of a 1997 design, which was a revision of a mid-80s design, is it a poor design in that context? Rusting on a Mk3 is of more concern.
I don’t think drilling extra holes in the sill is a satisfactory improvement, nor even fitting grommets.
From another thread, a good view of a nekkid Mk1:
A better view of the other side of this car:
So, you can see the relationship between the inner panels exposed when you remove the seatbelt trims, and the sill strengthening member. This is a possible way to effectively wash out, with a suitablly fluid liquid as part of an annual or bi-annual body maintenance programme. A decent dipolar solvent (something that will mix with water) will remove water condensate, leaving behind a dry surface, followed up with a rust stabilising treatment. You can measure the volume going in, and the volume drained out. The trim is easily removed on most cars (not on mine, as the rollbar needs to come out). The rest of the sill is accessed via small holes under the sill trim.
As for the longevity of repairs; thats down to the person making the repairs. Partial panel replacement will not last as long as full panel replacement, but the cost is a lot less.
If you were to change the structure, you may need to consider whether the car would need to be retested under The European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP)…
I take it you’re happy to fund that! (laughing)
It’s more about knowing what to do to prevent the problem…
You need to know how to look after an MX5 - it’s not just taking it to a Mazda dealer which almost all new car owners would have done… You need to take it to someone who actually knows the car and Mazda dealers don’t have many of those… When people buy a new one, they don’t expect rust or believe they have any need to take it to a specialist. How many people keep there "Mazda Rust Warranty up to date? I bet not many.
In the old days everyone used to “rust proof” their cars… It was a big business…
When you’ve seen as many cars as I have come in from Japan where they don’t use salt on the roads like we do and those that have been here for some time then …
Ultimately I don’t really care how bad the design is, relative to it’s age or not. The only thing that matters is that there is a major problem here and can we devise any method to improve it.
Are you saying that the rear end of the sills, close to the rear arches, IS actually accessible without having to use any cutting or welding? If that is the case then it should be possible, as you suggest, to have this as part of the regular maintenance routine. This would be Perfect for the TechDays where newbies (like myself) could get tips and instructions for how to access these areas and clean them up to minimse any long term dangers.
The rusting issues on NCs seems to be (so far) superficial rusting on painted surfaces, which seems to be down to poor finishing. eg.
and reports of rusting along the edges of wheel arch lips.
For the enthusiast keen to preserve their car, prevention of rusting, it seems to me, to pose the same challenges as for owners of MGBs, Spitfires, old Jags etc. It will require some knowledge of the car, and the weak areas, and coming up with routines to suit. I wouldn’t suggest that such additional maintenance is something that should be done by Mazda; the NAs/NBs are now so old, its all a bit late.
I wouldn’t characterise this as a “major problem”; MX5s are not rotboxes. Anyone new reading this might think they are. There is a problem, certainly, alongside other issues, but one that is not insurmontable, and it certainly doesn’t come anywhere near condemming a car. Maybe its best described as “a failure of expectations”.
My idea is speculative; I’d need to remove my rollbar to check. As soon as I tried to find photos to illustrate the interior panel, I was reminded of this very good thread; its for a Mk1, but the Mk2/2.5 has essentially the same anatomy:
So this is looking down the panel. The larger pressing hole I think is accessible from inside the car. You see the strengthening section, and how close it is to the outer panel; I don’t think its possible to accurately drill to reach this area only. The top of the strengthening section is above the hole that I think can be accessed. So you would need to feed a tube carefully. Alternatively, you could drill a small hole in the door shut (use a grommet to neatly block), to introduce a thin tube into the gap, using the larger hole to guide (you might have to whip out the seats), and then basically pump a liquid in.
That thread is a very interesting read; they were asking the same questions, and dismissing questions like drilling extra drain holes. As I thought, the first time you do this, its going to be a messy job, because you’ve got to somehow clear out the accumulated grime (salt, grit etc) as best you can. And, if the panel is already rusting, your efforts are going to be limited in effectiveness. I don’t know about introducing those rust converters into this area; if you can do it accurately, great, but you might have to allow a longer time to elapse to allow it to cure (because of the limited air movement) before embarking on additional wax or other rust preventative measures.
This is my very crude understanding of the sill, in cross-section:
Yes. And no. The problem is that the space in the diagram between ‘outside’ and the next layer in, the space that the dotted access line points into, has no drainage at the bottom - on a Mk1 at least. The outer panel doesn’t turn down onto the flange but just abuts it and stops. That could be why you typically see the rust line up to the base of the round inner hole when the outer skin is taken off or has rusted away. Above that level, if it ever gets that high, the water can overflow into the hole and drain through the channels pressed into the flange.
Maybe it’s their “gram” strategy - making everything thin, including paint layers… someone should tell them that drilling holes in pedals is one thing – but skimping on external protection is quite another!
I’m sure they’re capable of constructing a rustproof car.
After all, mass producers Ford (original KA excepted) and Vauxhall have been doing it for over a decade (down to a cost presumably) so it’s not rocket science.
I reckon it’s in-built obsolescence personally. Especially so given the Mk3 example above.
