Clutch or engine failure?

  1. My model of MX-5 is: NC Niseko 1.8
  2. I’m based near: Cambridge
  3. I’m looking for technical help or recommendations on: engine shudder.

Right: when I bought this baby for cheap I was aware I would have to fix some stuff, but I’m still wrapping my head around it.

Clutch was not great, so I got that completely replace. Shifting improved a bit but it’s still not amazing or anywhere smooth, especially when cold.

1st and second are always more difficult to engage compared to the rest of the gears, rarely 1st or even more rarely rear don’t engage at all and need me to either lift the clutch pedal and push it again or getting in second and then first. I appreciate it may the gearbox itself or something silly as the shifter boot (or both!) however what really bothers me is the clutch still being really on-off. I tried adjusting the clutch pedal and it did help with when the clutch engages during the movement but the bite point it’s still incredibly short. Additionally, when going into 1st and releasing the clutch at a reasonable speed I hear a “thud” which makes me think the clutch really engages/disengages too quickly without slipping in.

While starting from a standstill I find it very difficult to manage the RPM/clutch pressure which results in a shudder or in a quick takeoff.

I have not replaced the clutch cylinders (yet?) but my trusted mechanic says it won’t solve the issue. I am determined to try and replace at least the slave cylinder.

If that fails, should I be worried about the gearbox, the engine, or the clutch? I wonder if it’s an odd case of rod knocking which does not produce noises but creates shudder at low rpm? Is that even a possibility?

What would you investigate (or what first)?

Sorry for the wall of text, just brainstorming at the moment.

Thanks all

First thing is to bleed the clutch. It shares a reservoir with the brakes, very easy to get air in the system when the brakes are changed. The MK3 clutch can be hard to bleed and cannot be done using the normal foot on the pedal technique.

Buy an easy bleed online or at your local Halfords, this video will help you:
Mazda MX5/Miata NC Mk3 - Maintenance Episode 13 - Brake Fluid Change & Upgrade

Difficult gear changes in 1st and 2nd is a known MK3 issue. The right oil can make a difference to this. I use Motul Gear 300 and it made the issue a lot better. Video here:
Mazda MX5/Miata NC Mk3 - Maintenance Episode 8 - Changing Gearbox & Diff oil

Shudder would normally be clutch/flywheel related, very common when a new clutch is fitted, but old flywheel left on. Rod knock would not cause this.

Thank you.

Are you excluding the clutch cylinders as well? And if so, why please? I know that are a common failure point of the system (especially the slave cylinder).

You asked what to do first… well bleed it to see if that’s the problem before you start replacing parts. I am in quite a big circle of MX5 MK3 owners and I have not heard of any general issues with the slave. I’m not saying it isn’t that, but just randomly replaying parts isn’t the way to start.

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Thank you.

I just thought that replacing the cylinders would require a bleeding afterwards so I was thinking to do that all together.

I’ll bleed system first :ok_hand:t2:

The wall of text is great! It’s refreshing to read a detailed report about a problem, instead of “my car squeaks” and having to ask 20 questions to get some relevant details about the conditions in which the problem occurs!

Can you see any fluid leaks? Why would you replace a cylinder if it is not leaking? A good learning experience, but I doubt it would solve your problem.

Honestly, I don’t see how bleeding the clutch could help, either, because if your clutch needed bleeding, then it wouldn’t work in the first place and you’d have real trouble getting it into any gear/changing gear when the engine is running. Maybe your described double clutching is a symptom of air in the system but I doubt it (says synchros to me). If you have trust in your mechanic then you would think he would have bled it during clutch replacement, or maybe you could ask him if he did? You could get air in the system if you actuated the clutch pedal when you didn’t have any fluid in the reservoir, or it could be because of a leaking cylinder, otherwise I wouldn’t describe it as “easy” to get air in the system.

If I were you, I would do a few different tests, and find as many tests as possible to get a better idea. Here are some:

  1. Start the car, select 3rd gear, slowly SLOWLY let out the clutch, handbrake still on, no throttle. The engine should start to bog and then stall when the pedal is past biting point if your clutch is good. Then again, with MX5’s you can do that in the lower gears, too, but 3rd is the classic test gear.
  2. Stationary, car on. Plant right foot firmly on service brake (just in case) Clutch pedal depressed throughout, select 5th, then 3rd, then 1st, then 4th, then 2nd etc etc etc, go through every gear change from each one to each one, making an effort to make gear changes you would not normally make and take a note of any that are difficult to engage. What you are looking for here is the condition of the synchros in the gearbox. Reverse not so important here but can be worth trying.
  3. Find a gear that is hard to engage (and also try it with reverse), and keep pushing the gearstick into it as though you want to change into it. SLOWLY raise the clutch pedal, does the gear suddenly engage? This points towards synchros again. Or does pumping the clutch pedal all the way up and down help? This points more towards clutch, possibly air in the system.
  4. Take your gear shifter apart and look for play in the selector. This might tell you if it is a selector issue.

In general, if the problems are intermittent, it is likely to be clutch, if they are constant, it is likely to be the gearbox.

In terms of flywheel, I think people put way too much stake on the flywheel on these little cars. Unless it has been absolutely thrashed to all hell and is incredibly (and I mean incredibly) worn/warped as a result, the flywheel should be of no concern. The clutch is, of, course, designed to wear WAY before the flywheel does and it takes a monumental amount of abuse to get a flywheel into the sort of condition where it will noticeably affect the running of the car. Your trusted mechanic would have checked the flywheel during clutch replacement, and pointed it out? If the problem was flywheel you would have thumps and other symptoms in every gear, not just first. Although if the thumping-shuddering continues throughout the gear after the clutch is released, that points to problems in the gearbox and could be anything from synchro-rings to broken teeth, impossible to say without taking the gearbox apart sometimes.

As for the shudder, is it a result of the revs dropping and engine struggling, or do revs stay the same? If revs dropping, this is simply a skill issue (you drive many manuals?) If revs stay the same, this could be a sign that the clutch or flywheel are defective, it could simply be that the clutch needs bedding in a bit (unlikely), so just do a few fast launches to see if that helps, or burnouts, whatever you like that is clutch-heavy. Sometimes clutches just thump and grumble a bit until they settle in. These are not torque-heavy engines, so you need to bumps the revs up to pull away, that’s how 5’s have always been. Try some fast pulls and whatnot, since the other possibility is that your clutch/flywheel are contaminated, although the fact that you said you end up pulling away fast sometimes with no shudder says to me that things are fine.

My instinct says either your gearbox is worse for wear, or that you might need to adjust your driving style. I imagine 5 speed gearboxes for the NC are pretty cheap and widely available and learning is free, just takes time.

You haven’t said what was wrong with it in the first place, mileage, why you thought it a good idea to replace a whole clutch kit and what the old one looked like.

That’s a very good point. Inspecting the old clutch would have been very helpful. This points towards the gearbox again. This guy’s got one hell of an ammo dump for the parts cannon!

Hi, you are absolutely right - please blame my inexperience with inspecting or tinkering with engines, although I am quite an experienced driver.

So yes, while I am not a racing driver, I never had any issue with dialling the pressure on the clutch pedal. So I would exclude a lack of experience.

It think the main issue is the clutch being extremely on off. Although I’ve never driven another NC (or mx5 at all, really) so it may be that they are just the way they are. But I find it annoying. Guess i’ll just have to get used to it.

Yeah based on the advice below it does sound like it’s a synchro issue perhaps. Some days the car seems to be better indeed, however I’ve been blaming the different kind of shoes I wear. I went out and ai was wearing trainers so possibly more formal shoes limit the sensitivity of the clutch? I’ll pay more attention to it.

Syncro is probably an issue regardless, I’ll try the rest of the tests Ron suggested and Duratec: the clutch needed replacing because it was just worn when I bought the car, so even harder to make it work and smelly when start/stopping or when getting out of the car park from work… The mechanic did say that the flywheel was in good condition and it was not necessary to replace it. The clutch was replaced some months ago so I would assume it bed in by now. The car has 120k mi now.

I must admit that whenever I get into a 5 after not driving one for a while, if I don’t think about what I’m doing then I do tend to stall when pulling off/reversing until muscle memory reignites. Even the first time I drove one, it struck me how much more throttle I had to use to pull away, even my 1300 spitfire is more forgiving.

Guess I just need to get used to it then.

As for the issues in shifting, it seems the synchro may be the culprit. I’ll investigate further.

Thanks for advice all!

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