Cutting Artex Ceiling

[ast]

I’m getting a new conservatory put up, and the first job was to isolate the electrics to the old one before its taken down.

The complication is whoever put it up bodged it. Power is supplied by a feed taken from under the roof tiles, via a round cable (internal type) dangling in mid air. An electrician came round, but its a mystery how this was done. We can’t access the loft; its only about 2 foot tall. The feed is taken off the ring circuit, and the wiring in the house is “rising”. Checking every plug upstairs doesn’t find a the same wire type in the back of a plug, though it revealed a few plugs wired up by someone working from a Readers Digest DIY manual; burnt cabled due to cheap plugs, or under tightened wires…

Because the wrong cabling was used, the electrician can’t put it in a waterproof junction box and leave it on the roof; the outersheaf is pretty rubbery feeling.

The only options are to get a scafolding tour and lift a few tiles, or cut a hole in the bedtoom ceiling. But the ceiling is artexed. Its a mid-70s house. Although the artex looks fairly new, were not sure if its original, and possibly containing white asbestos (lower risk than blue asbestos, but still a risk). So the electrician suggested I mask up and cut a hole myself, then he’ll come in and make good the electrics, and the conservatory builders will patch my ceiling.

Not having cut a hole in a ceiling before, I’m wondering about the right approach. Evacuate the room of all soft furnishings. Laydown a dust sheet. Shaving foam can apparently reduce dust generation.

I was thinking about a mini disc saw (usable upsde dwn?), rather than reciprocating saw, as I can set the depth. Or better off with a plaster saw, With limited access to the loft, I am guessing where the joists are. The plan would be to mark where I want to cut, damp down the area to be cut, drill at the corners to give me some indication if I am hitting wood, then cut the sheet out. Can I seal the edges with lacquar? I used hairspray to lacquer hepa filters being changed in a lab that ere contaminated with some pretty bad biological toxins. I’ll then just tack some sheeting over the hole to minimise further loft crap falling into the room.

Does this sound like a fair plan, or run away…

The cable in question; it seems an idiotic way to wire up a conservatory, plus illegal. Needless to say, the surveyors never mentioned this when I brought the house.

[Bettabuilda]

Just a couple of observations that may, or may not help, from an unqualified reader of your post. I am only stating my own opinion here based on what I would do, it is not intended to be a definitive answer, or the solution to your current problem.

If convention has been followed when the original electrical installation to the house was done, the highest point for the upstairs sockets ring main, should be those sockets, taking their feed from under the bedroom floors up to the sockets. I presume the upstairs power has been temporarily isolated at the consumer unit and a check of the conservatory supply then done, to confirm that the spur for that feed has indeed been taken from the upstairs sockets. If not, the power for the conservatory supply might therefore be taken from the lighting circuit. Wrongly I know. Similar check by isolating the lighting circuit and testing the supply into the conservatory should confirm that.
Have you, or your electrician, taken out a light fitting to see if this is the case? I would have thought that the entry point into the roof from outside, ought to be adjacent to any light fitting in the bedroom ceiling if this was the case. If all this doesn’t achieve anything, personally, I would think about cutting off this loose, external feed from the roof and terminating it in a small weatherproof box mounted high as practicable on the house wall with the cable entry point from underneath, into said box with a drip loop to assist in preventing any potential water ingress to the box at the cable entry point. Then clip up the loose cable and forget about it, starting afresh with the new electrical work.
Some good information here relating to the textured coating on the ceiling. You will more than likely already have read this but…

https://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/essentials/index.htm#a2

Barrie

[DaveB63]

Unable to help with the electrical issues you are facing sorry,but to cut holes in the ceiling I would use my trusty multi tool,or failing that,a good old pad saw.
You could find the location of the joists by using a fine nail and hammer.
My daughters kitchen ceiling was artexed and had a central pendant fitting,which she wanted to replace with led spotlights.
She also didn’t like the artex. So I had 2 options,cut slots in the ceiling to enable wiring,patch the ceiling and have it skimmed,or pull it all down and replace with tapered boards and tape and joint it.
I chose the 2nd option
Hope everything turns out well

[MickAP]

As Barrie says that cable has been connected to the upstairs light ring. Someone has been up in the loft and made the connection, obviously at a point easily accessed (the highest point) in the roof space then poked it through the gap in the tiles. The wiring will be running along the base of the roof trusses to each light fittings for the upstairs. I reckon they’ve just kept pushing the wiring through until they had enough dangling to grab hold of it from below, hate to say it, cowboys.
If you can get in the loft (someone has before) and disconnect it you won’t need to cut that hole.

Edit… sorry I just reread you post, it seems you can’t access the roof space, no access hatch anywhere?
You could do with my trusted roofing man, he’d be up there in a flash and have those tiles off and get in that way. You’d need new felt afterwards, trouble is though he wouldn’t want to touch the electrics.

[ast]

@Bettabuilda

Just a couple of observations that may, or may not help, from an unqualified reader of your post. I am only stating my own opinion here based on what I would do, it is not intended to be a definitive answer, or the solution to your current problem.

If convention has been followed when the original electrical installation to the house was done, the highest point for the upstairs sockets ring main, should be those sockets, taking their feed from under the bedroom floors up to the sockets. I presume the upstairs power has been temporarily isolated at the consumer unit and a check of the conservatory supply then done, to confirm that the spur for that feed has indeed been taken from the upstairs sockets. If not, the power for the conservatory supply might therefore be taken from the lighting circuit. Wrongly I know. Similar check by isolating the lighting circuit and testing the supply into the conservatory should confirm that.
Have you, or your electrician, taken out a light fitting to see if this is the case? I would have thought that the entry point into the roof from outside, ought to be adjacent to any light fitting in the bedroom ceiling if this was the case. If all this doesn’t achieve anything, personally, I would think about cutting off this loose, external feed from the roof and terminating it in a small weatherproof box mounted high as practicable on the house wall with the cable entry point from underneath, into said box with a drip loop to assist in preventing any potential water ingress to the box at the cable entry point. Then clip up the loose cable and forget about it, starting afresh with the new electrical work.
Some good information here relating to the textured coating on the ceiling. You will more than likely already have read this but…

HSE - Asbestos: Asbestos essentials

Barrie

Thanks

Thats what the electrician said he went through the checks and determined it wasn’t off the lighting circuit, but he hadn’t actually checked any of the ceiling roses; therefore, in the obvious bedroom, I will take a quick look at the obvious rose for obvious additional wiring. It is the most obvious, to me, because otherwise they would have needed a midget to get through the roof originally.Though I woud have taken his original determination at face value. I didn’t get charged though for his 3 hurs faffing around with every socket upstairs.

He had throught about the weatherproof box, but the problem was the wire that had been used, a round cable, was “illegal”, and not suitable for external use. Something about the insulation not being up to it. As an electrician, if he did any work, he assumes liability. He had thought about a metal sheath (I forget the term), but the issue was you couldn’t really waterproof the entry of that into a box.

[ast]

@MickAP

As Barrie says that cable has been connected to the upstairs light ring. Someone has been up in the loft and made the connection, obviously at a point easily accessed (the highest point) in the roof space then poked it through the gap in the tiles. The wiring will be running along the base of the roof trusses to each light fittings for the upstairs. I reckon they’ve just kept pushing the wiring through until they had enough dangling to grab hold of it from below, hate to say it, cowboys.
If you can get in the loft (someone has before) and disconnect it you won’t need to cut that hole.

Edit… sorry I just reread you post, it seems you can’t access the roof space, no access hatch anywhere?
You could do with my trusted roofing man, he’d be up there in a flash and have those tiles off and get in that way. You’d need new felt afterwards, trouble is though he wouldn’t want to touch the electrics.

The loft space is very small; there are hatches, but with all the insulation up there, there is no real access.

I did sayat the time, I needed a roofer who was also an electrician. The cost of me cutting a hole in the ceiling, and then getting it patched up again is probably less than the cost in hiring a scaffolding tower.

I can speculate how they did it. If you look at the zoomed photo, it appears thereare two cables; one disappearing into the tiles, and one running across the tiles to nothing. Its probably some scrap. I specualate they (cowboys) tied the cable into a loop, poked it under the tiles, from a ladder. Then used some hook implement to grab it and pull from the inside, by whatever means they had created their own access (the ceiling in the bedroom might not be original; the artexing doesn’t have the same clean lines as elsewhere, and it seems a stud wall has been moved, and the same cowboys have miswired the landing lights, so that one now acts as a master; I favour the previous home owner, who was a plumber, having a go himself) and pull through.

Illogical wiring, because where the conservatory was, they were just feet away from the downstairs ring.

[MickAP]

An idea would be to undo each light fitting starting with the likeliest one to try and find an extra connection behind one. Assuming that visible cable goes straight there to one it should be obvious when pulled out. All power isolated of course.

Reminds me of my son’s house, the previous owner was a bodger, some of the stuff I’ve come across, plumbing being one I’ve had to sort out for him. Another are the electrics but I won’t touch them, then the attempt to do some internal decor like half cladding the walls, think he gave up halfway through.

[ast]

The previous owner was a plumber, but he did things on the cheap. The plumbing is terrible, with pathetic flow at the bath taps and shower, because he used the wrong (cheap) fittings. Superficially looked alright, and he did nice tilework.

I discussed with the electrician about possibly updating the old fusebox. Sucking of teeth, because then he would have to certify the whole house and go through every light fitting, uncovering a can of worms. But he did give me a nice price to rewire my tragic garage, which despite being a 1970s build, has bakelite… Garage refurb is on the cards, its getting a whole new roof as part of the conservatory work.

[anon35904086]

If the ceiling is covered in Artex, remember Artex contains asbestos…

Edit - just seen you’ve already mentioned that…oops…

[martin]

artex is more often than not asbestos containing in my experience and I wouldn’t touch it, unless tested and clear. It’s always the job of a specialist even for cutting simply holes or making fixings.

[anon35904086]

Turn mains off

Cut cable

Terminate

Build conservatory with new feed from a ground level supply