I agree with alot of the points made in protest of the fair fuel prices argument.
But…
Although alot of the points made are correct, that the government (for the most part) spends the money they demand from us on helpful things and that this in itself is necisary (and not on 4th homes and moats), i beleive it to be short sited.
taxes and prices on goods have done nothing but climb for decades. proof that this method isnt solving anything long term.
although in the short term and if only done in a small way a dropping of taxes and prices would negatively effect the country, its inhabitants and the economy, i beleive in the long term it would put an end to this “downward spiral”.
think of it as a farmer (the government) having having a feild (the people) which he uses to grow a crop (taxable income).
if one year a farmer churns out two harvests but is struggling to brake even, the next year he does three, and the next year four. This proves too much for the feilds rescources, nutrients and water to deal with. causing their to be less crops in each harvest. and of a lower standard.
now apply that to people. keep taxing them, making life more expensive and this breeds poverty, depression, alcohol and drug abuse, lacking educations (not in all cases i understand but generally). they will stop working. stop being productive. stop producing their share of “crop”. and start COSTING instead, being a drain on rescources. Making things even more expensive.
You are essentially strangling their rescource. trying to eek out every last penny now with no consideration what this will mean to its sustainability. this can only last so long untill there is none left
alternatively make things cheaper, although in the short term things will likely get worse, and they can buy things. they can afford to go to work. they can afford holidays and they can afford to pay tax. More importantly people WANT to work. linked specifically to the case in point, people take day trips, buy less economical cars because they are fun, the amount of tax earnt on each litre goes down but the amount of fuel being bought increases (though this itself has disadvantages in itself i understand but thats another argument) and although the tax on that is less, there is more being sold = more money.
Economy essentially isnt the amount of money a country has but the speed and amount that that money changes hands. the way it flows through different industries and rescources. at the moment no one wants to spend because they cant afford to. in the long run that can ONLY be bad.
Overall the FFUK argument though valid in some respects has utterly failed to achieve anything. I was a supporter of their campaign but their resistance to actually doing anything has left many people disappointed and let down. As a campaign group they are effectively finished. So if we must put up with such high fuel prices the focus should switch to focus on getting better value from this such as improving the roads which we have paid. I appreciate that it will be impossible to have every road billiard board smooth and perfect but serious questions need to be addresed as to how contractors are chosen and why the quality of repairs is so poor. I’m sure everyone would agree that better value needs to looked at, I cannot imagine that anyone actually enjoys driving on our decrepid and third world roads?
This is probably an argument to post elsewhere but I just felt I had to pass comment given the appalling roads I witnessed earlier today.
“Utterley failed?” They managed to stop the fuel price escalator earlier this year (would have added .03P to the tax) and with the support of well over 100 MP’s - including our Tory MP . Granted they failed to stop the latest tax increase, but that’s because there wern’t enough supporters to get the message across, that’s why they are asking for more. Not quite sure where you were at the time?
One thing is clear, as Once said earlier on this thread, motorists are continuing to pay whatever extortinate prices are charged at the pump, and as he also pointed out, while they do that, it isn’t conducive for the Chancellor to think about decreasing the tax. As a believer in some conspiracy theories, it wouldn’t suprise me if this wasn’t engineered to produce such a result, but we can’t blame Fair Fuel for that - however, while prices are high, so don’t forget is the VAT - which increases as the base cost increases. The Chanellor must be rubbing his hands in glee methinks.
We can’t force people to stop buying petrol - or deisel, they have to get to work somehow, and as some have also pointed out, the cost of rail travel is astronomic, which forces people to seek alternative means to get to work. However, if enough people get behind the campaign, then perhaps we can convince the Chancellor that his tax is doing more harm than good. None of this is helped by the fact they’ve just decided to give away 9 billion to struggling nations (via the World bank) - but aren’t we already in that league? Taxation (in any form) is strangling growth - essential we are told, as we have an enormous debt to repay - - - HUH? We borrowed vast sums to pay our way, now we’re loaning some of it to the World Bank - - - HUH?
I feel that the Gov’t plays a “wait, wait, wait” game. My opinion is that they think, that if they, wait, diffuse, or play a deflect strategy , then, the objection, whatever it may be, will go away. I THINK NOT!
Gary, good post, but the trouble is that most sheeple in this country just roll over and take it. The only one time that the nation stood together and got a change was the poll tax marches. People power did force a change then. Alas, it was soon forgotten and average Joe Soap gets now gets shafted on everything.
When sheeple understand thats its not a red or blue vote that matters- they’re all the same (corrupt) - and we actually get a Common Sense Party, then, and only then, will things get fairer and better. The wealth at the top needs to filter down to everyone so that we all benefit. I won’t hold my breath.
Let’s not pretend it would be any different whichever party is in charge because it wouldn’t. Putting the argument over price slightly to one side I wonder if anyone has calculated the real world difference vs say 20 years ago taking improved fuel consumption into account? This won’t help those who drive a 5 every day but…
Take my everyday car, it’s a 2011 BMW 116d, it does well over 60mpg on a run and nearly 50 around town. It might cost be a fortune to fuel the thing but in terms of pence per mile on fuel it is pretty good. My previous car was a Ford Focus 1.6 petrol which did 40mpg on a run and say 35 around town. Ignoring the cost of the actual car surely in real terms I am better off even with a higher price of fuel?
I’m not saying we’re not being ripped off but I just wonder if anyone has thought of the progress argument and then factored that into the argument? In other words as fuel consumption decreases the government are forced to rip us off, sorry tax fuel more to achieve the same or increased level of income. Afterall i’d imagine if we all drove cars that did 25-30mpg then fuel would be cheaper like it is in the US.
Thats a fairly complicated calculation; there’s no doubt people drive more than they did 50 years ago, when most engines gave up the ghost after about 50k miles.
The AA have published non-inflationary data for running costs since 1998:
There are plenty of online inflation calculators (Bank of England has one) about to make worthwhile comparisons.
A paper was prepared for Parliament has some interesting inflation adjusted historic data:
I’d draw your attention to page 5, which ilustrates the fuel duty escalator, inflation adjusted. Interesting.
And then to page 16, which illustrate the change in real price of petrol since 1920 to 2012.
While the price in 2012 is certainly historically high, its not markedly so; certain crises have sparked spikes that are higher, and we also have to remember that more petrol is being burnt off now by more people than ever world wide.
When the Model T came, petrol was very expensive; hard to get out of the ground, hard to refine. So the Model T, with the aerodynamics of a brick, achieved 25 miles per US gallon. about 30 mile per our gallons. Which is about the same as my lightweight, sleek, fuel injected 1996 Roadster. Of course, my Roadster is a faster car, so some would say its more efficient.
A Mk2 Cortina, a 40-50 year old design, could average about 26mpg, according to tests of the time. A 2012 Mondeo I suppose averages about 45-50mpg (my 8 year old Alfa averages 48mpg, with a light foot on the throttle). Petrol in 1965 was about 80 pence of today’s money per liter. Petrol in 2012 is about 145 pence. Taking into account changes in fuel economy, about 7 pence per liter will need to be knocked off to bring the cost petrol such that running a Mondeo would be about the cost as running a Cortina back in the swinging 60s. But putting fuel in the tank is just one part of the cost of a car. For some people, depreciation is a running cost; for me, its only relevant when I sell a car, and thats something I can always choose to avoid. Servicing cannot be avoided. I suppose a 1965 Ford needed fresh oil every 3000 miles, and a decoke every 40-50k. My dad’s old Prefect managed to get to 30k miles before the engine seized. My Alfa needs oil ever 10,000 miles, so per year it needs less servicing. Brakes last longer, and need less work, tyres last longer. And so forth. At a guess, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that a car in 2012 costs about the same to run in real terms as in 1965.
BUT, people have short memories, or the 1960s are about as relevant as 1920. The problem is, as the chart shows, was that in 1990 we enjoyed pretty muc historically the cheapest petrol ever known. It might not have felt like that, but you have to look at the Great Depression and the Berlin Airlift to find cheaper petrol, and then not by much. Most of us drive and enjoy cars that are essentially products of the cheap 90s; a Mk2.5 is essentially not all that different from a Mk1. Maybe I need to get rid of the MX5, and buy something more in tune with the times.
I get the impression that we might be about to see seismic shifts in fuel efficiency; the new £38k Vauxhall barge is claiming 300mpg; its not really getting that, but nevertheless, it does sip fuel for such a big car. A more of these hyper frugal cars proliferate, you’d expect demand for oil to drop, maybe fuel will start dipping down to 1990 prices again.
Not saying this because you agreed with me, but I love that term ‘Sheeple’ - it fits the box really well! - And it’s true. Biggest problem - as I see it, is that the people in power (whoever) still think we are a power to be reckoned with, so our taxes go to pay for that false image. Hence, we have to prove to the world that we are still Grand Britannia - when in reality, we are feeling in our pockets for the odd change that isn’t there. That oft repeated phrase “if you don’t like us, you have a vote, so use it at the next election” is meaningless, when the sheeple either don’t vote (because it never makes a difference) or if they do, then the next lot merely nod at previous legislation and carry on with the theme. ‘The opposition’ at the moment are umming and arring about what they will and won’t do, so make you mind up now, or rollover - - - -. 30% of the possible vote is not representative of all the people - and when (or where) was that achieved anyway? Sigh - - - -
Whilst no one voted consciously for a Coalition (its not possible to anyhow), the current government does represent considerably the votes of rather more than 30% of those who bothered to get away from their evening Soaps to go and vote. I never saw Quentin Wilson on a Get-the-Vote-out drive.
The irony is that the term Sheeple was popularised by a far right American group, the John Birch Society, and now used in the context of 1990 riots that were orchestrated by marxist groups (Militant Tendency); Marxism is one of the last groups that you would associate with the rights of the individual. In 1990, the average Polltax bill was about £400, in today’s money, about £700. So the average 2 adult household today would be paying £1400. My council tax bill is pretty typical; modest little house, no garage, in a cheap part of Beds, the sort of place where 2 adults could live, is £1375. Luckily, I get a single person discount of 25%. Thanks, Derek Hatton/ Tommy Sheridan; you’re costing me £700. The Polltax protests were an example of how the basic issue was quite complex (why should a single person under the old Rates system, pay the same property taxes as a household full of adult scrounger, producing 4 times the waste to be carted away), but hijacked by the Hard Left, at a time when they had no answer at the ballot box (despite the Poll Tax Riots, the Conservatives won the next election, showing the sham of that protest movement).
Whatever you might think, disparagingly, about the armed forces, the UK is still one of the few countries that could, at a touch of a button, obliterate a country on the other side of the world. Whether you look at the World Bank or the IMF stats (people often confuse the two institutions), of the top 10 countries by GDP, only 3 countries have any kind of capacity to defend international trade; the USA, France and the UK. Countries like Germany, Japan, China, have virtually no blue water naval capacity, though China is desperately trying to reverse engineer former Russian and British carriers in an effort to have that capacity (the next major conflicts could potentially be in East Africa, as Asian states clash with Western states over access to agricultural land). Brazil has no way to defend its trade, and has to depend on countries like “Grand Britannia” to ensure that, for instance, Brazilian merchant shipping can get through the Indian Ocean safely. By 2050, its expected that Japan will no longer be considered a Developed Country, thanks, in part, to its failure to defend her trading interests. Germany has benefited, over the last 60 years, by being associated, via NATO and the EU, from the collective might of the UK and France, defending, effectively, German trade interests. It will be interesting to see how well Germany would do without the UK and France to pick up the tab. A look at history might indicate how that might go.
The bulk of your taxes are not spent support what you see as an outdated Imperialist image, but are instead spent supporting the principle that people ought not rot in the street when in financial straits. I spend a lot of time carrying out family history research. Both halfs of my family have a story indicative of how the expensive Welfare state has changed the UK. On my father’s side, the family were from Bermondsey, or more precisely, a street called Kent Street. Kent St was a place with a nickname; the Kent Street Ejection. Everyone on the street was in slums; so poor, that if you missed your rent by 2 weeks, the landlord would turn up and take the front door away, leaving you at the mercy of the elements, or the locals who would cheerfully relieve you of your paltry possessions. It was one way to evict someone quickly. On the other side of my family; my Great Grandfather was born in Melton Mowbary Union Workshouse; if you look down the list of what was called inmates in 1891, you will see the majority of people were over 60, and manual workers, who, because of age, could no longer work. But there was no Pension then. At Melton, the vagrants cells have been forgotten; a forgotten part of the town hospital now (the former workhouse); homeless people were literally rounded up, thrown into small solitary cells, and had to break rocks all day.
The Welfare State sucks up most of your taxes, and then some, given how the last socialist government encouraged hospitals and schools to get into hock through PPI (ie. todays schools and hospitals are actually going to be paid for by the poor plebs of tomorrow). The challenge, and its a challenge that defeated most governments of the last 30 years, is how to reduce that welfare bill while maintaining the undoubted benefits that we all enjoy. Overseas aid is a cheaper form of national defence; the two are tied. Both are designed to promote and defend the national interest, which for this Nation of Shopkeepers, is trade. You could sack the army and shut down the foreign office. It won’t make a blind bit of difference to the cost of driving your MX5, at least in reducing it. If anything, the price of things will probably sky rocket, as shipping lines are forced to hire private armed navies, in order to get your Mazda parts and the go juice, to your door from the other side of the world, without ending up as ornaments outside of Mogadishu.
There is no easy answer to this; if you are using disparaging terms to describe your fellow citizen who doesn’t agree with you, such as sheeple, then we can talk about the sheeple who believe the simplistic guff of the Fairtax mob, who are really only out to look after their own narrow interests (ie. the dividend paid to shareholders of trucking firms). A movement that is against the imposition of consumption taxes is music to the ears of the far left, who are opposed to consumption taxes, in favour of redistributive income taxes (take from the rich). As a form of taxation, consumption taxes are far more efficient than income taxes; its difficult to avoid paying taxon petrol, unless you know people in the 'RA, but income tax avoidance/evasion is actually legal, and quite easy to do if you are wealthy (and don’t forget, income tax was and still is, a temporary tax, enacted during the Napoleonic wars, and still renewed by Parliament). Its a complex, ideological problem, underlined by the small print of the last budget, when you see how income tax for workers was changed.
As for what occupies the minds of some of the people at the top, have a read:
As close as you are going to get to crystal ball gazing as you are going to get outside the fair.
Just because I don’t support movements against changes in fuel taxation does not make me a Sheeple.
I am a firm believer in the ballot box. Its done us well as a nation for 200 years (ok, for most of that time, most people didn’t actually get to use the ballot box). I read the comments by numerous muppets on that Fairfuel website and I despair; what sort of idiot, leaves a comment calling for mass riots and for people to be killed, to get tuppence off the price of petrol, and leaves their NAME. Hopefully, someone is watching those comments very carefully, and taking note. Protest fine, make yourself heard, fine, form a political party, fine. But don’t threaten to go on the rampage because you don’t get your way.
Educated - yes, Brilliant - possibly. But using a sledgehammer to crack a nut isn’t my idea of an understandable reply. O/K - I’m married, have a son, a house (gradually deteriorating), two cars (depreciating) threats from local authority re building housing on adjacent green belt land, threats from Nottingham City council and Notts County Coucil who are presently also contrite in building a huge park and ride site on what was green belt land, almost within a stones throw from where we live - all of which means I don’t have the time to do this kind of research, I’m 78 and still working because this ‘huge’ assistance I get from the welfare state doesn’t pay all the bills, so I still have to work when I can.
If I see a new word, in this case ‘Sheeple’ then I don’t have either the time or the inclination to search through the web to research the origion of that word, but the term is certainly applicable to the sheep who wait for a shepherd to lead them to pastures new. If people don’t agree with me doesn’t mean as far as I’m concerned that I should call them by any name, the fact they disagree is indicative of their individual POV, and |I learned to accept that at a very early age. Problem is that there are an astonishing number of people with no opinion at all, ask them a question and they shake their head and walk away - try talking ‘Club’ and what it means to some members, and they look at you as if you just landed from another planet, I forget how many times people have said "I don’t talk politics - - " when I had queried “How do you feel about the Club?”. - The ‘Club’ is the area as far as they are concerned. “Politics” is apparently, anything beyond their friends and neighbours, we live in a nation of isolationists.
AT says we have the power to ‘obliterate’ some small countries on the other side of the world? - The A bomb? We, with other western powers seem to have failed miserably to obliterate North Korea, North Vietnam, Iraq and now Afghanistan - totally ignoring history, and what went before us. There was a time when we were in imminent danger of obliteration ourselves, only the dedication of those famous ‘few’ and the meanderings of a hysterical dictator saved us. I have nothing against our armed forces, on the contrary my heart bleeds for any poor soul who lost limbs, eyesight, or life in an attempt at conquest of some foreign land, often for reasons totally alien to why they signed up - the defense of this country. We send troops to some god forsaken land, ill equipped with guns that either won’t fire, or can’t hit a target (the Lee Enfield could kill up to 3 miles away, in the hands of a marksman) in badly engineered land rovers better suited to charging over Salisbury plain than the wilds of some savage countryside.
The Navy? Our ‘Glorious Navy’ - that once was, now barely exists. We can’t afford it. The Air Force? - as former proud member of that establishment, my heart aches to see the state it’s in. All these branches of our armed forces are deteriorating day by day, so if we were faced with another invasion I doubt we have the capability to defend this green and pleasant land for more than a few months. I see there is a current campaign to recruit teenagers into the Terriers - a cheap alternative to provide more fodder for foreign fields - having made redundant regiments, ships companies and squadrons by the armfull (We can’t afford them)
Economy? We stand with open arms for foreign investment, hence our current PM visiting as many countries as he can to help sell what’s left of our industry to outside investors. We alowed the sale of the jet engine to the Russians, back in time we sold lace machines to the Dutch and Belgium, more recently Raleigh bicycles and the famous MG car company to China (Raleigh was a good third of Nottinghams former industrial power) - the list goes on. Did the people benefit from any of this? - ask the unemployed. We were (once upon a time) the industrial powerhouse of the world, with exports going everywhere. Granted we also followed ‘Gun boat’ policies in many foreign lands, and having lived by the sword (lit.) we are now dying the same way. Importing is now our major business, as a quick tour round any so called ‘Industrial estate’ will tell you - they are full of distribution warehouses. White goods from Italy, Spain, and the far East, electrical and electronic goods from most of Europe, and a lot of Asia, Food from everywhere (while we build houses on good agricultural land to cater not just for our own, but immigrants from anywhere who see the welfare state as a golden egg) - heck - it’s endless.
Where’s the power?? Forget the inconsequential, face up to the reality! Am I a cynic - probably! I come from a working class background, and a Secondary school education, and I’m proud of it. My kin helped to build this country - and they are now turning in the grave. China is the new powerhouse, and soon will dominate the world - even the Yanks realise that. The company I stll do work for sold one printing machine to China, hoping to sell a lot more - big mistake, the Chinese are now producing an almost identical machine, and flooding Asia with it, so production of that machine has now ceased. Africa is selling it’s very soil to China - and China is filling the jobs created by Chinese workers. (We think we’ve got problems)
Oh - and keep your dogs on a tight rein - the Chinese eat dogs - - - - ! (Daily Mail yesterday) They also consume Elephant and Rhino horns, Shark Fins, Lions and Tigers, so wildlife will cease to exist in Africa, go to your local Zoo and save money! (and zoos are under pressure too - - - -)
To AT. I’ve edited my response to your post as we are not going to agree on a lot of things.
However, I am neither a marxist, or a far righter and would like to point out two things for you:
a) When i made up the term sheeple i was not aware of anyone else having used it before.
b) Like a lot of other decent, hardworking people in this country it is hurting me everytime i fill up (and this includes all the other price rises that happen due to fuel cost increase on all my other outgoings).
I like this forum, love my ‘new’ 5, and i like coming on here. I’m going to my first local group meeting this week and am joining up to the main club as i’m sure i will meet some nice and cool people from what i’ve seen so far. However, I do think you underestimate just how much petrol price is hurting ordinary people.
I dont mind paying taxes if those taxes lead to positive outcomes. But it seems to me that continued increases to fuel duty will stifle productivity. Not only is it unfair to the poorest motorists, but it also leads to price hikes on all consumer items (again hitting the poorest, hardest). And tough luck if you make your crust in the transport industry. Yes, we have to, and need to, pay taxes. But taxation alone will not solve our problems. We used to be a country that invented, and produced. We need to encourage (uk owned) industry and production, create new jobs, and consumers. The economy continues to shrink, despite taxation and funding cuts. You can not ring blood out of a stone.
Amen to that. I would comment that instead of many profits staying with the top 2% it has to filter down to the worker. When this happens then everyone gains as far as i’m concerned. Mind you, world economies have taken a huge polar shift and now we’re selling all our land/companies oversea’s.
I’m lucky to have a good job that pays pretty well but ‘blood out of a stone’ - its already feeling like that to me. Think of our infrastructure as the arteries of the country. At the moment the heart is not pumping and the so vital blood flow is not moving.
Want proof? This is the double dip, and its gonna get worse. So i’m all for marching myself. Oil is cheap, duty is not
Never mind putting fuel taxes down - when is someone going to bite the bullet and replace VED with increased fuel tax? VED costs me 15p a mile because I don’t drive (or pollute) much. I certainly create a lot less CO2 than the owner of a Prius doing average mileage.
The price of petrol is “out of control”, three quarters of British motorists believe. In a survey by car valuation company Glass.co.uk, only 2 per cent of the 2,000 drivers polled believe that current fuel costs are reasonable.
Moreover, the increasing cost of filling up a tank could push more motorists off the road. Some 38 per cent said they would give up driving entirely within one year if prices rise at the same rate as they have over the past 12 months, while a rise of 14p-15p per litre would see 85 per cent of people making a significant change to their lifestyles.
