HSD Dualtechs: Best coilover for fast B road use?

[Speedy_aka_Ian]

[quote=Squidlord]

@Speedy aka Ian

Where are you located ?

I’m sure someone local with the suspension you would like to try would be happy to give you a drive out.

I have been around Mx’5 for approx 20 years and have driven all marks with just about all types of suspension.

I choose Meisters because I know what they can do for me that others cannot. Plain and simple.

 

I’m based in Leeds/Bradford so if there are any local folks who don’t mind taking me for a drive that’d be awesome! 

I’ve felt the standard bilsteins before and they are fairly brutal so it’d be a good experience to see what custom jobbies offer!

 

The club Spring rally is at Wentworth Woodhouse in South Yorkshire 24th April, pop along and see a load of fives.

I will be there with my Mk1 on the MazdaMenders.net stand or the competitions, if at all possible I will be more than happy to take you for a spin out.

[Squidlord]

@NickD

Mazda did a very good job of suspension design and OEM parts are made to a very good standard by virtue of the volumes produced and the development experience that went into them. It has always amazed me that what is effectively an off the peg suit is supposed to fit as well as a tailor made item. 

If you want genuine B road performance you do not need firm or stiff suspension because it will bounce you off the road. This is your compromise. The car is a cheap ■■■■ sports car, it is never going to have Rolls Royce levels of ride and comfort. It does not have adaptive damping or trick like that. If you want to cope with bumps and dips at speed you need a compliant suspension. If you also want comfort do don’t want stiff. 

The issue here is what do you expect? There is nothing wrong with the standard car. Yes it will roll more that after market stuff, but equally that stiffness is not best for comfort. Everything is a compromise. 

I’m sure that the OEM stuff was extremely well designed, everything else on the car (rust traps excepted) seems to have been massively over-engineered for what in effect was a cheap sports car, so I’ve no reason to doubt that, though having said that 24 year old shocks no matter how well designed don’t exactly give you an idea of what they were like new. When I had the original suspension on the car the body roll was horrendous, so I suppose I want something compliant, with less body roll than stock.

The lowering springs I have fitted reduced body roll significantly, but the damping is now totally out of whack, so I want a ride that gives confidence on bumpy roads, with less body roll than stock, but better damping and a ride height drop of around 30mm, similar to the performance springs I have fitted. 

I’m not under any illusions that the car will never be a rolls, I’m only 30 so I can handle a stiffer ride no problems, but there is that compromise between what works at the track and what works on the roads and I see no point in setting my car up with suspension that’s better for track than road use just for kudos. All three suspension’s mentioned could fit the bill I’m sure, it’s just which offers the best compromise and value for money as far as I’m concerned. 

 

 

[Squidlord]

 

[/quote]

The club Spring rally is at Wentworth Woodhouse in South Yorkshire 24th April, pop along and see a load of fives.

I will be there with my Mk1 on the MazdaMenders.net stand or the competitions, if at all possible I will be more than happy to take you for a spin out.

[/quote]

 

Thanks Speedy! I’ll head down that way on the 24th then!  

Just waiting to hand over my sensible car next weekend to a new owner so I can move my 5 up and start enjoying the summertime with the hood down! 

 

[Mitzi_Blue]

@NickD

Mazda did a very good job of suspension design and OEM parts are made to a very good standard by virtue of the volumes produced and the development experience that went into them. It has always amazed me that what is effectively an off the peg suit is supposed to fit as well as a tailor made item. 

If you want genuine B road performance you do not need firm or stiff suspension because it will bounce you off the road. This is your compromise. The car is a cheap ■■■■ sports car, it is never going to have Rolls Royce levels of ride and comfort. It does not have adaptive damping or trick like that. If you want to cope with bumps and dips at speed you need a compliant suspension. If you also want comfort do don’t want stiff. 

The issue here is what do you expect? There is nothing wrong with the standard car. Yes it will roll more that after market stuff, but equally that stiffness is not best for comfort. Everything is a compromise. 

 

I realise the topic of which suspension set-up is very subjective: everyone who drives any given car will feel something different from that car.

Given that proviso, from the perspective of wanting the compliant but controlled suspension for a car intended to be used as a grand tourer, would you say its better to go back to OEM Mazda shocks and springs, or, say, Geoff’s Konis and springs. And in that case, which shocks and which springs…?

Mark

[NickD]

If you want lower and stiffer so as to roll less it will depend on where on the scale of comfort you expect to be. Lower and stiffer does not equate to speed on back roads well. 

It is my experience that most dampers work until they don’t. Saying a damper has done X number of miles or Y years old does not mean it has worn in the same way as a tyre would. One of the biggest issues with lowering springs is that they are stiffer and suspension travel is reduced and so the existing damper is overwhelmed. 

I would suggest that Meister or Gaz will give you what you want but stay with 350/250 springs.

[Mazda_mender]

@NickD

@NickD

You will find that what ever brand a poster has is what they will favor.

You get the point.

Or you mean with some it it what they have tried over many years with different set ups and fitted for many many owners including themselves?.

Signed the poster.

M-m

 

[Mazda_mender]

@Squidlord

 

The club Spring rally is at Wentworth Woodhouse in South Yorkshire 24th April, pop along and see a load of fives.

I will be there with my Mk1 on the MazdaMenders.net stand or the competitions, if at all possible I will be more than happy to take you for a spin out.

[/quote]

 

Thanks Speedy! I’ll head down that way on the 24th then!  

Just waiting to hand over my sensible car next weekend to a new owner so I can move my 5 up and start enjoying the summertime with the hood down! 

 

[/quote]
Come and see us all on the mazdamenders stand and we’ll bore you death on all things Roadsters, Nick is next to us to, so it is a win win, we don’t do bull, i’ll bring a set of meisters CRD’s with me so you understand what we are biging up buddy, and as said Speedy will take you out on a thrash, i will be helping with the clubs comps judging first but all free after that. 

M-m

 

[NickD]

@Mazda mender

@NickD

@NickD

You will find that what ever brand a poster has is what they will favor.

You get the point.

Or you mean with some it it what they have tried over many years with different set ups and fitted for many many owners including themselves?.

Signed the poster.

M-m

 

Well alrighty then.

[ir_427]

Just a quick question for Saz - do you know if there’s much difference between the Puredrives and the stuff Protech sells itself now?

[ast]

@ir_427

Just a quick question for Saz - do you know if there’s much difference between the Puredrives and the stuff Protech sells itself now?

I don’t think there is; Protech have apparently updated the internals, and now has a better coating (subjected to NATO salt spray testing). Problem is the springs; Phil got the pigtail springs from some other place, and I don’t know the ratings. So if you are trying to replicate the original Puredrives from scratch…

 

I had the shocks rebuilt by IG Racing

http://www.igracing.co.uk/dampers.html

 

£60 plus vat per shock, plus parts, which I think was £10-15. A lot cheaper than buying a new shock from Protech.

[ir_427]

@saz9961

@ir_427

Just a quick question for Saz - do you know if there’s much difference between the Puredrives and the stuff Protech sells itself now?

I don’t think there is; Protech have apparently updated the internals, and now has a better coating (subjected to NATO salt spray testing). Problem is the springs; Phil got the pigtail springs from some other place, and I don’t know the ratings. So if you are trying to replicate the original Puredrives from scratch…

That was sort of my thought… Lowest spring rates Protech offers are 325/225. I’ve had GGPs on 350/250 in the past; Protech also offers those rates (and many firmer), which I seem to recall was Phil’s choice for the Sportdrives, but I’d be tempted to go that bit lower. May I ask what top mounts you’re using? And what about dust boots?

Talk of different internals might defeat the point, though, if it changes the way they behave.

@saz9961

I had the shocks rebuilt by IG Racing

IG Racing - Main Page

£60 plus vat per shock, plus parts, which I think was £10-15. A lot cheaper than buying a new shock from Protech.

That’s good info, cheers.

 

 

[ast]

I’m using Mk2 top mounts and SuperPro bumpstops (cut in half), which came with their own dustboot.

[ir_427]

Thanks Saz.

For the reference of anyone else contemplating the same thing, I found a comment from Phil elsewhere confirming the Puredrive spring rates at 350/250. The pigtail design of the springs may also have an impact on the behaviour, though, as they’re supposed to reduce coil binding (I have no idea how true this is, but I can see how it might make sense); Protech sell their version with straight 2.25in ID springs. I actually happen to have some 350/250 pigtail springs from Gaz, so maybe I could use those. The Protechs currently appear to be on sale at £508 a set, with springs but no top mounts, etc. Tempting.

For the benefit of the original poster, my car is currently on new OEM spec springs and dampers – which do indeed deliver genuinely decent fast road behaviour. I bought this car on KYB adjustables with standard springs (pretty horrid in rebound), and have subsequently fitted mk2 Billies and fixed height Gaz before returning to the pseudo standard set-up I’m using now (I have mk2 top mounts and Fat Cat Motorsport bushes). Am also seeking fast road behaviour, basically; I only want to change again because I see the value in height adjustability as well as perhaps being able to fine tune the damping to taste. Previous cars have been fitted with Gaz Gold Pros (there’s a long thread on here somewhere about my initial experience with these; got them working satisfactorily in the end), and I’m currently trying to decide whether to go with MeisterRs or something else. Really I’d like to try a car with the Meisters fitted before committing – I’m slightly dubious about their spring rates, but have been told the independent preload design of the Meisters changes the usual formula for this. I’ll be at the rally on Sunday, hoping to ask a few people about these and other options.

Good luck!

[ast]

There might have been some guff about binding of springs, but the reason is so you can use Mk2 top mounts with standard perches. Phil offered an option of a perch to take a standard Mazda diameter spring as well, not sure anyone took him up on that.

A comment from IG Racing was they always buy their Protechs and GAZ shocks “dry”; with no oil in them, and assemble/fill themselves. Most of the failures they see, whether its GAZ, Protech, Shcktec, AVO, are down to poor factory assembly (swarf), because the design is basically good for the price (they’re all evolved from a Rod Avon design).

I think one has to be realistic about the capabilities of any shock-spring set retailing for £500-600; this is at the budget end of the spectrum. The choice is over budget shocks made here or made in the Far East. I wish I knew who actually makes these Chinese/Taiwanese shocks. I can look at Alibaba, and see maybe a dozen Chinese/Taiwanese makers making shocks that look vaguely similar to the shocks being sold here. Raceland are imported cheap TUV certificated shocks, but not these others; not sure why. The certification is done by TUV in China, not here; its not an approval certificate as such, but more of a manufacturing conformance (ie two sets of Racelands are equally crap), and indicates if the manufacturer has got processes under control.There are different tiers of manufacturers in China; the best are the manufacturers who supply to Ford, VW etc in China. There seems to be an enormous different in car parts factories in China

Feel sorry for anyone trying to source from China. Yikes

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/flaming-lee-wasnt-a-real-counterfeit-goods-investigator-she-was-a-counterfeit-counterfeit-goods-investigator

[Squidlord]

Hi everyone!

Just as a follow up to the thread, I took a ride in Ian (Speedys) car at the spring rally and was really impressed with how the car handled on Meister R’s. I ended up ordering a set of the new Meister CRD’s and spent Saturday on my back fitting them. Took a drive up to the dales yesterday and in my opinion the handling of the car is completely transformed! Bear in mind I was on lowering springs on standard shocks so for me this was a huge step up.

YMMV obviously depending on where you’re currently at on your setup but I for one am extremely impressed! Currently the car is set at 310mm front and 320mm rear with 5mm of preload and full soft until the car settles into the springs, then it’ll be off for a full geo setup and I’ll start tinkering with spring rates and damper settings.

So far even on this vanilla setup the car handles superbly. I probably drove it a bit too hard in the dales yesterday considering it’s settling, which is testament to how much confidence a good suspension setup provides!

Big thanks to Ian who took the time to chat and offer me a ride and proffer his advice, also thumbs up to Adrian Flux who didn’t even ask for extra money for adding on my new suspension and wheels!

I’ll stick up some photo’s soon and let you know how I get on once it’s settled in properly and had a geo setup done.

Thanks for all the advice chaps!
Alex

[Speedy_aka_Ian]

@Squidlord

Hi everyone!

Just as a follow up to the thread, I took a ride in Ian (Speedys) car at the spring rally and was really impressed with how the car handled on Meister R’s. I ended up ordering a set of the new Meister CRD’s

Big thanks to Ian who took the time to chat and offer me a ride and proffer his advice, also thumbs up to Adrian Flux who didn’t even ask for extra money for adding on my new suspension and wheels!

Alex

Hi Alex

Great result, good thinking by Wayne the Mazda-Mender to bring a Meister to the rally and show you the quality of the item.

Glad you enjoyed the run out even though we did frighten the locals a bit.