Mk2/2.5 chassis rails, are they being repaired correctly?

Very.  A good question and a good answer

I’m not a repairer, so can only make a non-expert comment.

It hasn’t exactly been established that the factory double-skinned (if it was) version was designed to crumple, has it?  Or indeed that the earlier ones weren’t?

But, given that any “plating” repairs are almost certain to fail in a different way to the original fabrication that Mazda used, the best hope is probably that the repaired legs are adequately strong.  In fact that must apply to virtually all welded repairs of any type on any car, something I have always been mindful of with accident-repaired vehicles too.

The gold standard if there is one must be what Scottishfiver did, using official replacement legs, but that is probably hard to justify in pure economic terms.

It’s accepted I think that the crash performance of classic vehicles generally, repaired or not,  is nowhere near that of modern ones anyway.  A solidly welded MX5 is probably a better bet than most cars made in the 1960s or '70s.

I don’t mean to say that safety doesn’t matter - more that we probably need to be conscious of the limited extent to which older, hobby cars can protect the occupants in an accident.

 

Hi John, I agree totally about the more “elderly” cars. My mk1 had no airbags, no abs, not a lot of anything in terms of added safety extras. Partly why I loved it and drove (as much as is practical) accordingly. Coming from motorcycling, I drive to an extent, as you would on a motorcycle. It’s served me well.  Good point on the crumple zone too! I have to admit not seeing conclusive proof on that, although not really looked to be fair. Only Internet postings on forums just like this one 

Barrie

All MX5s have a “crumple” zone. The telescoping chassis just performs differently in a different spec’d crash test. ie. needed for Type Approval. The factory replacement sections are solid only, indicating Mazda does not think the change materially affects safety.

The repair patches are just that; an aftermarket, non-manufacturer approved repair developed through pragmatism (the cars are not presently worth enough to justfy the actual factory approved repair). They are not a “belt and braces” approach, in that they are a conservative repair, cutting as little as possible factory metal out in the belief this will compromise the integrity of the vehicle least.

No one can guarantee that all of the rusted metal has been removed; the origin of failure has, to my knowledge, has never been identified. Rusting, when it becomes evident (note, not when it occurs) is generally around the front anti-roll bar mount. A complete failure will presumably mean the front anti-roll bar will come away. In a smaller number of cases, damage has extended closer to the front subframe mounts, though I’m not aware, at a first pass, of a front subframe mount having yet failed. The consequences of a front subframe failure sounds to me more serious than a front anti-rollbar.

The quality of the welding in the repair is also likely to be variable, with different welders using different techniques, and with varying ability. The consequences of a weld on a patch failing are quite serious, because presumably the original metal has been cut back some, to closer to the front subframe location.

It would seem sensible, if this sort of repair is done, rather than a fix and forget, the owner should undertake at least twice yearly inspections of the repair and surrounding metal, to check for cracking and further rusting (external inspections, and then perhaps once yearly front nose off, endoscope inspection of the box section. Unfortunately, the temptation is to after the repair, to slaver the whole lot in a creeping bitumen-wax mix, in the belief this will make it stronger.

There is a difference in the consequences of this repair failing, compared to an inept rear “sill” repair. For the latter, in many cases, the sill itself is not affected, but only the outer, non-structural wing. MOT inspectors of course would not see it that way. In the case of extensive rusting, the integrity of the seat belt mount might be affected, and this is probably the most immediate safety consequence for the owner. Rusting of the sill does not really affect how the rear wheels stay in contact with the road. If a front chassis member repair fails, then a potential consequence is that you are now brown bread.

For these reasons, I would never guy a Mk2 or 2.5 with one of these aftermarket repair patches fitted. There are too many variables. A rusted Mk2 though might be good for performing a heart transplant on a failing Mk1 though.

Personally I can’t see that a box facing forwards is a crumple zone. If you place a loo roll on end on the ground you can stand on it. Same principle.

 

Since I have never cut through Mk1 rails I am only guessing when I say the metal thickness is 1.5mm, and that the infamous Mk2.5 is definitely 1.5mm,

with an additional 1.5 spot welded in the base and 2/3rds up each side.

 

I would be interested to know what thickness the bought repair sections are.

 

I made my own from 2mm, working on that single thickness chassis are 1.5 and so called crumple zone additions are 2 x 1.5 = 3mm, so 2mm I figured about right.

Perhaps they should be called crumble zones.  

 

 

 

and after welding.

 

I’m not a motor engineer but in order for these rails to be a crumple zone, the metal would need to facilitate crumpling. Adding a second layer of solid metal has the reverse effect.

Crumple Zones are designed to absorb impact in a controlled, progressive manner in this case protecting driver and passengers from focused shock. No evidence of the usual ribbed structures here that facilitate that.    

These are not crumple zone friendly parts but crumble zone they most definitely are:-)

Joking aside - what a way to condemn such a great car! 

 

 

 

 

I think Saz hit the nail on the head, referring to telescoping? Presume the inner ( or outer ) section will move rearwards against the other peice following a frontal impact? I did smile at the reference to crumble zone 

Barrie

If you want controlled compression, rather like banging your foot down on the top of a can, you would use a rounded section rather than square. Crumple zones also tend to incorporate areas of weakness like ribbing to diffuse focused impact in a progressive and more controlled way,

Telescoping would require weaker sections at the front to shear or collapse on impact before stronger sections behind.

In my opinion the front chassis rails on the MK2 were not designed to progressively absorb impact. The second layer appears to faciltate captive fixings and temporarily add strength. In truth it was a mistake as proven. 

Has anyone had cause to dissect a MK1 chassis rail for reasons valid or otherwise? I would expect these to be a single layer, possibly thicker throughout the entire length. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it but we didn’t know how good the MK1 front chassis rails were until MK2.5 were already failing.         

 

My Mk1 chassis rails appear to be single skin. 

These are externals of my '93 Roadster chassis rails, albeit taken about 4 years back or something.

They are no different now. Clearly there are no “scientific” conclusions to be had, but they do suggest…something.

 

Might was well give 'em a lick anyhow.

Early Spring, they will be ready to “support” another 146,000 miles.

 

Glad I made a couple smile with my reference to “crumble zones.”  

 

No matter how serious life gets there’s always time for a smile.

 

Paul G

Mk1 crash testing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNXo1cn5IsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lRGpkjSP2I

Mk1 Crumple Zone aftermath

You don’t even need to crawl under the car to know the Mk1 MX5 was fitted with crumple zones. Pop the hood, pud. The bonnet is designed to crumple on impact, through indentations on the bonnet bracing. Chassis rails are not the only element of a “crumple zone”, or energy absorption in the event of a collision

The Mk2 introduced the Mazda Advanced Impact Distribution and Absorption System (MAIDAS) (Mazda Geometric Motion Absorption, MAGMA) gave 2 way impact energy absorption. Retrofitting telescoping chassis rails were also used by Citroen, and these are giving the same corrosion issues, though no one cars as much about fixing a Citroen box.

The change was driven by a requirement to meet the new European Collision Safety Standard (offset front collision and side collision), which was introduced at the end of 1998. This introduced a new front impact test. The Crumple Zone efficiency of the NA body shell had to be improved. Crumple Zones weren’t some new fangled innovation introduced during the last years of the 20th Century. The 1990 Miata MX5 incorporated many state of the art safety features, and was one of the first cars designed by CAD, and FEA tools. Of course that Computer might have been something like an Apple Mac II.

SAZ9961

[quote]

The Mk2 introduced the Mazda Advanced Impact Distribution and Absorption System (MAIDAS) (Mazda Geometric Motion Absorption, MAGMA) gave 2 way impact energy absorption. Retrofitting telescoping chassis rails were also used by Citroen, and these are giving the same corrosion issues, though no one cars as much about fixing a Citroen box.

The change was driven by a requirement to meet the new European Collision Safety Standard (offset front collision and side collision), which was introduced at the end of 1998. This introduced a new front impact test.

[end quote]

 

 

So we are saying that after MAIDAS and MAGMA the authorities introduced “Side & Head-on Impact Testing” ?

 

Paul G

The idea of a safety cell for vehicle occupants with crumple zones front and rear is older than most of us…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crumple_zone

The crumple zone describes the entire structure rather than particular component parts.

An individual chassis rail that is designed to crumple would look something like this…

https://www.google.com/search?q=crumple+chassis+rail&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjMmoCtodTbAhWKDsAKHTv4CpAQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=662#imgrc=kAA9saxbibKJWM:

Where did you find the MK2 chassis rail described as telescoping?