hi all, I’ve managed with one key on my car since purchase several years ago. Following on from the topic by JS46 regarding his issues of key programming and subsequent success, I have been in what feels like constant messaging with John today. Thank you John for putting up with me
He directed me to an online key/fob supplier for the purchase of a brand new Mitsubishi 4 button fob and a flip key cut to my VIN number, which still left programming to sort. I rang an auto locksmith this morning whose advertising made me think I’d got a solution. However, he has come back to me saying his equipment can’t deal with my car, despite claims of 24 hr service, replacement keys, the programming etc of ANY car
I rang PERRYS Mazda in Halifax when I got the car, who spun me such a tale and wanted over £1000 for me to end up with 2 working keys! Needless to say, that never happened. I rang JCT Mazda this afternoon in Leeds, they gave a quote of £280 all in for genuine Mazda 4 button remote, key blank and transponder. They get someone to cut the key and then they program everything up so I will have 2 fully working complete keys and fobs for the first time. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable price and will be going for it, unless someone knows any different in the Leeds area?
Sounds like a reasonable Mazda dealer price for the genuine fob and programming but surely there is a cheaper way to get this sorted out.
What did John do to get his sorted - there was a thread on here the other day and I added some links to Miata.net posts - were they of any use?
The big problem with these is programming the generic transponder chip to the car. MK3 would have rolling security so stored information updated every time used and cloning not possible.
Why are they insisting on a very expensive Mazda fob? If you have a working physical metal key and have managed to program the remote, that just leaves programming the generic transponder chip which is really independant of everything else. Would imagine the Mazda fob costs around half of that £280?
That is similar to the amount we spent on a replacement key for our Impreza from the local Subaru Dealer in March maybe nearer £240.
As I and many others have advised in many very clear posts on this forum.
If you are prepared to put up with a plain transponder key you can get Timpsons to cut that and copy the electronic number that from your existing key.
Then go on to ebay and buy a remote fob with the exact make and model number that matches yours and teach the remote to your car which I have done on a good few NC1 cars. With success
You end up with two units on your keyring.
We now have one user who could not teach his fob to the car.
You can also and one forum user has done this, take the transponder out the Timpsons key and attach it to an ebay keyblade that you then get cut to the original key pattern. He advised he was successful with this and also with teaching the ebay secondhand remote to his car. Ending up with one unit on the key ring
On the other hand, sometimes, you just say OK get the dealer to do it and just bite the bullet.
Decide what you want to do and just do it. Your money, your car and your choice.
Then get the hood down and do not worry about only having one key.
Slightly different problem to Barrie. It was only the remote which had failed on one of the keys for my car, so the coding of that part of the key to the car is a DIY job (when it finally worked). I still had the key blade which contains the chip recognised by the car ECU so that was simply fitted to the new remote. If a complete new key is needed, the new key chip must be coded to the car ECU and this is a dealer only job, for security. I think independent suppliers can cut and supply key blades by making the transponder chips a clone of an original key, so that will work with the ECU. That’s my assumption; I can’t think how else to do it. It’s only the remote unit which has rolling code to prevent thieves potentially skimming the radio signal carrying the code and reusing it. The key chip is fixed and does not change.
Thanks all. Yes links worked, but for information it finally worked when I just turned the ignition on and off three times WITHOUT removing the key each time and then I pressed the interior light switch in the door shut three times to simulate door closing and opening and Bingo, the car went into remote key pairing mode.
Moral, as Barrie has found, factor in significant cost if buying a car with a missing key and don’t lose them!
I’ve had a quick look on the website via your link burton, thank you. It looks like they can “refurb” existing keys I.e. New case, micro switch, buttons etc but doesn’t look like they can reprogram. Unfortunately I don’t have the key for a refurb thanks for postings though
The problem I am finding is the lack of consistent information.
MK1/MK2 cars 1995 - 2000 have fixed data transponder chips that can be cloned as the data held does not change.
The MK2.5 car 2001 - 5 has rolling security which means that the data on the transponder chip is updated by the car every time it is used in the ignition. This means that cloning does not work as a single use of one key changes its data and invalidates any clones. These keys have to be individually programmed to the ecu using a special, vehicle specific 8 digit PIN.
I assumed that the MK3 also has rolling security as seemingly more secure than the old system of fixed data + technology rarely goes backwards but…I am not sure and others seem to think that the data on MK3 transponder chips is fixed and therefore by definition the keys are cloneable. This would be very convenient if true amd would account for some posts on previous threads that talk of low charges from Timpsons and the like for enabling MK3 transponder chips. Does not however make sense to me. anyone really know how this works on the MK3 - Robbie if you are about?
Like Rhino, I’m now very intrigued by this. It’s true the remote uses a rolling code system. Absolutely necessary as it uses a radio connection of known frequency and that could be read by a third party. If it was the same each time that would be a serious vulnerability.
Health warning this is my personal opinion only. I’m extremely sceptical that the key chip is changed each use. This would make the chip an EPROM. To the best of my knowledge the ignition uses a similar system to the new contactless card and simply ‘reads’ the chip. There is no power supply in the key blade and it seems, to me, potentially very flaky to reliably rewrite the chip remotely using a (weak) radio signal. Also as far as I’m aware dealers can ‘remove’ lost keys from the ECU to prevent stolen keys being used. Would that be possible if the keys were constantly changing? Possible I suppose, if they had a two part signature, part fixed and part rewritten. As I say, my personal thoughts only and I’d welcome confirmation.
Reading the current horror stories about theft of keyless cars, it shows that technology moving forward doesn’t always improve things.
The transponder chip is a strange concept as no power source, so the idea that data can be transferred and possibly updated hard to accept.
I’m no expert but can tell you a little about the plastic ring that sits around the key entry on your ignition, I call it a transmitter ring/pickup antenna. It has a power source that flows through a copper winding. This winding surrounds the chip when it is in place, energising it and allowing the passing and in some cases(MK2.5) updating of data.
The ecu holds records of the existing transponder chip data so it is reasonable that a dealer with the appropriate device to read/update this information would potentially be able to remove keys. Programming with the earlier cars(MK1 - MK2.5) using an 8 digit, vehicle specific PIN just allows the addition of new keys.
When at Timpson’s they read a code with the original key in a reader/writer so close distance coupling and I have seen the code come up on the computer screen.
They then put the new cut Timpson’s key in the reader/writer and write the code to that new key with a transponder in it.
Yes, I have seen that done so do not have to accept that people do not think that is correct.
Further on one occasion I had a Timpson’s key that was for a vehicle I did not own nor did I know where it came from.
On that occasion the Timpson’s tech took the little red plastic transponder chip package out that key and put it in a newly cut key and overwrote the code on that with the code from the key I was needing cloned.
This works on MK2 cars and I believe some early MK2.5 cars but not on later Mk2.5 cars with a rolling code.
I have read on this forum that later Mk3 cars, NC2 from 2009 and NC3 cars may have rolling codes and in this case the simple Timpson’s clone procedure may not work. I cannot confirm this.
I can confirm if you get a new Dealer key it will have a new unique code on it and that the dealer will have to add that number to the ECU in order for it to work.
On the Subaru they remove all the codes on the ECU and write each key to the ECU memory and can write a maximum of three codes to the Subaru ICU. I cannot say exactly how the Mazda dealer write the codes or how many codes the cars can store.
I can assure you that all MK2.5 cars have the awkward rolling security transponder chips and all MK1/MK2 are fixed.
Barrie has a MK3 I believe so it should just be a case of getting the transponder chip information cloned to another by Timpsons or similar.
Would make entire sense that the technology went from fixed data on the MK3 to rolling data on the MK3.5 and MK3.75 and no surprise that there is total confusion.
Hopefully Robbie will spot this thread later and confirm
Ok guys, some really interesting posts on this subject, thank you one and all
from what I’m reading, I reckon I could buy a 2nd hand remote fob off eBay for approximately £30. I could then swap out my existing key and put it in the new (to me) remote fob. Then I could do the ignition in/off and door open/close cycles. This should pair the new remote to the car.
At this point I will have 1 complete functioning key/remote and one functioning remote. The website suggested by JS46 can supply a cut key based on my VIN number for £40-£50 or I can get a eBay blank for less than £5 and have that cut to match (£10) my existing key.
With me so far?
Then, off to Timpsons to have one of their clone keys coded up from my original transponder key for £50, (is that correct?)As Drumtochy then suggested, dig out that transponder, insert it into my new cut key and job done.
Cheapest option;
ebay remote (£30)
ebay blank key (£5)
key cut (£10)
Timpson key coded (£50)
Total £85 and a bit of faffing
Second option;
ebay remote (£30)
new key blank VIN CODE cut (£50)
Timpsons key coded (£50)
Total £130 and a bit of faffing
Third option;
call in at Mazda, order new complete key/remote
call in at Mazda have everything's programmed in
Total £280 and no faffing, brand new and warranted. Slightly over three times the cost of the cheapest option. Slightly over twice the cost of second option. TBF, I've not asked JCT Mazda for a price to just supply a new key to go on a 2nd hand eBay remote and program that to the car. Potentially a hybrid solution that might sit somewhere in the middle? Will look into that shortly.
This is based on the 2nd hand remote fob being paired to the car by myself, which sounds feasible.
Just come off the phone with JCT Mazda, £160 for just a key cutting and programming, based on me having a working fob to then have a complete set up. So, another £120 for a genuine Mazda fob, brand new, supplied, or an eBay special 2nd hand for £30. (£90) difference but total peace of mind I suppose. Will think about it.
Barrie
Sorry rhino, was typing at same time as you
The Timpsons thing, as you say worth looking into. Eddie has witnessed this first hand.
Right, getting a bit further now. Timpsons website was pathetic, contact numbers out of date, unable to use the store locator function, rang the number provided which gave out two further numbers to now use. Typically no pen and paper handy but managed to memorise one number. Rang it, usual stuff about being a valued customer, finally got to speak to someone only to find I’d memorised the wrong number Chap transferred me through,another wait etc. Anyway, spoke again, this time chap said they could provide the entire thing (4 button remote, new key, transponder, all coded and working) but couldn’t give a price. He did give me a number for my nearest store that can do the work though. Turns out, in the White Rose shopping centre, a mile from me parts need to be ordered so will pop in and report back with outcome and prices
Been down to Timpsons in the White Rose shopping centre. First off, the chap at the shop looked a bit nervous at first but soon got into his stride he looked in his book of Mazda ( and other ) remotes but not showing the mk3 4 button ones, however he did say, no problem, took some details and said he will check and come back with a price. He did say last one he did was around £240 for the full monty. So I’m waiting for that call which might be tomorrow as he said he was very busy. I told him it was a Mitsubishi version ( same as the one that JS46 has) he didn’t seem interested but put the key in his code reader thingy, came back and wrote Phillips along with some code numbers, I guess that was the transponder chip. I also asked whether it was just a clone of my existing key and he said definitely not. He actually looked quite offended and said he would need to come to the car to program everything, which reassured me somewhat. I will get more info if I can, provided the final price is suitable. At the moment it’s only £40 less than genuine Mazda service and supply.