Did you get this sorted? I’m really tempted to get the BBR 220 once the warranty is up, but I hear hit and miss comments about a lot of the BBR engine packages. Most of them very minor, but I want it doing once and then fit and forget, not driving up and down the M6 to tweak!
Hi DC04R,
In answer to your question I would say “sort of”.
The P0087 (Fuel Rail Pressure Too Low) code has not reappeared and BBR were never able to explain it.
Regarding the P0300 (Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected) code, when I returned the car to BBR (first return visit), after inspecting the engine to find the cause of the misfire they stated that the spark plug gaps had been tampered with (since the conversion?) or the wrong plugs had been fitted (from new?) which I can say was patently not the case but when I stated this I was basically made to feel that I was lying. They stated that the plug gaps should have been 0.9mm and not 1.2mm as found on the car and this was the cause of the misfire. They had reset the plugs to the correct 0.9mm gap and this had cured the misfire. So I left feeling a little puzzled.
It was on the way home from this first return trip that the P0421 (Warm Up Catalyst Below Threshold (Bank 1) code occurred. More on this later.
On my return home I did some research as to what the standard plug gap should be, which confirmed the Mazda factory gap spec as 1.2mm which did not tally up with BBR’s comments about the incorrect spark plugs being fitted or tampered with. When I called BBR to discuss this they questioned my several authoritive sources of information (including Mazda) and we had quite a heated discussion which got nowhere. So at this point (as I know the original plugs had never been touched) I thought that maybe BBR had forgotten to change the gap to 0.9mm when they did the initial conversion and did not want to own up to it. More on this later.
Regarding the P0421 (Warm Up Catalyst Below Threshold (Bank 1) code. This occurred on my return home from the visit to “sort out” the misfire problem. The engine management light came on when restarting the car after visiting a motorway services. I had my OBDll meter with me which threw up the said code. I rang BBR who said it may be possible that they forgot to delete a line of code related to the warm up catalyst sensor but the car would be alright and just to delete the code message on this occasion and any subsequent occasions that it may appear. I did, but nearly every time I drove the car the engine management light would come on (and the P0421 code) and I had to delete the error code again. This was obviously not a reasonable thing to put up with and it necessitated in yet another second return trip to BBR to have the line of code in the engine ECU deleted.
During my visit to have the line of code deleted I questioned why the spark plug gap needed to be reduced from the what is evidently the factory spec of 1.2mm. They said that the misfire was caused by the spark being “blown out” and the gap should be 0.9mm to prevent this and that they always had to do this on “turbo” engines (Eh? Although this can be the case, it reduces the efficiency of the engine and the engine is naturally aspirated). Consequently they had reset the plugs to a 0.9mm gap to prevent the misfire and that I was looking into it too much!
Subsequent to this second return trip to BBR I was still puzzled by the spark plug gap story which appeared to have too many contradictions. Had they tried to cover up that they had forgotten to reset the sparkplugs on the initial installation by telling me that the sparkplug gaps had been tampered with subsequent to its purchase as a brand new car by myself or the wrong type had been fitted to the car as new or subsequent to their conversion, or was there another fault/issue requiring the sparkplug gaps to be reduced? So, to get to the bottom of this, as non of it made sense to me I contacted another Super 220 owner about the spark plug gaps on their car. This owner very kindly removed his plugs and measured them and low and behold the gaps were 1.2mm! With this information, as it is not easy to reset the gaps on this type of plug without damaging the iridium tips, I purchased a set of new factory spec (1.2mm gap) plugs. I have done a fair number of miles since and not had the miss fire problem reoccur, so you can draw your own conclusion from this.
No more fault codes have come up on the car for about 6K miles so I assume everything is ok. However I am not convinced that it is performing as smoothly at high RPM as it did immediately after the conversion even though I am generally quite pleased with its performance. I have had the car on a local rolling road owned by a respected Subaru tuning and rally prep outfit and it confirmed that the engine performance is there (BHP and torque) but that they detected some pre-ignition engine knock at above 7000 rpm which they stated may be due to the ignition timing being too advanced at high revs. This may be the reason the engine does not seem as crisp and smooth at high revs as it initially did. The test was done with Shell V power in the tank so it is unlikely to be the fuel octane rating that was causing the issue. I would also think that having the 1.2mm spark plug gap rather than 0.9mm would cause this as I would have thought that a larger gap would delay the spark (ignition) timing if anything.
Maybe I have just been a bit unlucky, as many people are delighted with their Super 220 conversions. My confidence in BBR was initially knocked immediately after the installation as when I got home I was looking under the bonnet at the installation only to find that the air filter box cover had not been refitted and when I took a look to fit it correctly I noticed that the original paper filter was still in place instead of the advertised K&N one. BBR apologised for “forgetting” the filter and sent me a K&N one in the post. Notwithstanding the fault codes my main issue was with the way I have been treated by BBR when faults occurred.
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Cheers for that write up mate. That’s really handy to know. I’d be in same boat as you and would only cause me worry, so I’m really not sure I could be fussed with that amount of ‘unknown’ and effort. Should be a case of drop off/pay/pick up and all sorted, paying those prices - which is higher than other places but reasonable if you’re paying for that top level of expertise and attention to detail. Maybe just unlucky though but you shouldn’t have been quizzed one bit.
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Yep. Not the service I had hoped for. I feel that the initial installation may have been rushed as they did seem under pressure at the time and it did take longer than they had said it would take. They initially told me they had problems achieving the advertised power figures and had to fit their GT rear box (an extra £395) to get anywhere near them. They also explained to me that the reduction in maximum power from the 220 bhp advertised was a result of them remapping the engine so as to increase the torque in the lower to mid rev range (maximum 170.1 lbft @ 4750 rpm) at the expense of higher rev range torque (and so maximum power) to make the car more drivable for customers. This went against my initial reason for choosing their package as advertised, which was that it did not increase the maximum torque to such an extent (so did not add any more stress to the gearbox) but increased the maximum revs to achieve the power advertised. Nobody else I know with the Super 220 conversion has been told this as far as I am aware. I am pretty forgiving and as I am Engineer I would have appreciated an honest discussion as to the problems as I would have understood them and taken them into consideration. As with many of these types of services customer relations are great until problems arise and then the customer service declines.
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Im not going to bash BBR as they are well respected but certainly not perfect. I would say I detected the same issues that you had when I dealt with them over the phone. Basically I ordered a GT back box for my NC. They sent me an ND race back box (the loud one) by mistake but no big deal mistakes do happen. A lot of messing around with couriers ensued but I felt the personal service was shall we say somewhat gruff. I felt patronised despite not being in any way at fault, that really raised my heckles during the two phone calls I had with them. The new back box eventually arrived but with the incorrect gasket so I just bought one from MX5 parts as I was didn’t fancy conversing with them again. Some companies really let themselves down by the manner in which they deal with their customers, BBR are no exception and I probably won’t use them for any future work I’m afraid.
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Only just spotted this thread, very similar experience to mine with BBR and the turbo conversion, in the end i did approximately 1,000 miles driving back and forth troubleshooting and resolving issues (not compensated for) and also had heated discussions with Neil. My car needed the additional stage 1 clutch which isn’t part of the upgrade and adds a significant additional cost on top of what is already a substantial cost for the conversion. Not a great experience for me either, similarly i also need to change my spark plugs but have held off as someone has suggested to me that the gap needs to be different from standard, i was awaiting confirmation but am even more concerned about this after reading this thread, i guess i need to remove one of the current ones and measure it, as the car certainly at the moment is running without issue.
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Exactly what I can’t be arsed with. For 4k I’d expect drive in, drive out and many years/miles of trouble free motoring. Think I’ll pass.
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Hi Gareth.
Yep, I did 1300 miles all told and 4 nights accommodation costs overall to sort out my “issues” without any compensation.
Regarding the spark plug gap Neil told me that they usually reduce the gap to 0.9mm for turbo conversions as the extra airflow generated by the turbo blows the spark out. They said that they reduced the gap on mine to cure the misfire even though mine is non turbo. However the misfire was occurring in the mid rev range under part throttle, which didn’t really tie up with what they were saying. After consulting another ND Super 220 owner he confirmed that his plugs were at the Mazda specification gap of 1.2mm. I therefore bought some new plugs with this gap and installed them. The misfire did not re-occur as a result.
On another note, I felt that the car did just not feel the same at the near the very top of the rev range as after the original installation. It felt rougher and the power seemed to drop off. I told BBR this on my third visit to have the P0421 fault code sorted and was told I was analysing it too much and to just enjoy the car. A few weeks later I had the car put on a local dyno and even though it showed the same maximum power the power and torque curves were very different with maximum power being at 7,270 rpm and dropping off quite significantly rather than the original BBR dyno figure of 7,600 rpm slightly tailing off at 7,800 rpm. The dyno people said that their system recording some knocking (pre-ignition) at the top end of the rev range and they suggested the ignition timing was too advanced. The car has never been run on anything but Shell V Power. I should also state that the BHP figures can differ with different dynos as the correction factor for engine bhp and roadwheel bhp can differ due to different loss factors for different powertrain systems (which vary from car type to car type). Their setup is usually used for tuning rally Suburus, so the maximum engine power recorded might not be the same as on the BBR dyno. However the different power curve somewhat confirmed that I was correct in feeling that the power delivery was not the same as after the original installation. As a consequence of being told about the pre-ignition at high revs I am now reluctant to use the full rev range for fear of damaging the engine.
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I had the ND1 Super200 fitted in Sep 16 and had no problems with it. Nothing was said about spark plug gaps and i have subsequently changed the plugs using standard gaps with no problems. There appears to be a few changes to people who work there, so maybe that has had an impact on the quality of work.
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They (BBR) are still subject to the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
In so far as they get an opportunity to rectify a fault before you are entitled to a price reduction or refund. Multiple trips up and down the country with hotel expenses should have been covered by them as a minimum. It speaks volumes of their customer service that you were not compensated voluntarily. All of those affected by faults could claim a price reduction for the hastle and inconvenience, BBR wouldn’t have much defence if indeed it ever went to small claims court.
Well, I was looking to get the Super 220 conversion and had actually started saving for it. This thread has made me re-evaluate and it’s a hard pass from me. As said previously, this should be a ‘fit & forget’ conversion.
Of course I could get it done and have no problems whatsoever, but the joy would be ruined because I’d always be expecting issues.
Shame about the customer service, it’s so hard to find a company these days that seems to give a ■■■■ but then it is quite refreshing when you do (I should add for fairness that I’ve bought parts from BBR in the past and had no issues).
Think I’ll spend my money on a new set of wheels and tyres instead.
Well yes. BBR make it quite clear that they would not cover the costs of transport or accommodation for initial installation (understandable) or any visits to have faults rectified consequently (not so understandable). But when you have to make a return trip to have a “forgotten” deletion of a line of code they really should pay up. They cannot expect a customer to put up with constant engine management warning lights and fault codes. Problem was, I did not want to sour my relationship with BBR whilst the car was under their warranty but admittedly I should have been more assertive when I was there. When I did question Neil in any way he just would not want to listen to my point of view or my request for a proper engineering explanation of the issues.
The only real way to put the issue to bed one way or another would have been to have BBR put the car on the dyno again with me present to prove it was performing as it did at the original installation. This was not offered at my third visit but I should have insisted on it and been prepared to pay for it if necessary, subject to the car performing as expected. I can not imagine BBR being prepared to find time to do this now, and being prepared to pay for my travel costs now the car is out of their warranty. From previous experience I also doubt they would accept the findings of the dyno test I had done locally.
Not taking sides but I’d like to say what i think.
Many people who heavily modify their car in order to tune it they buy a fully programmable ecu or buy the kit to program their existing ecu.
You can’t delete lines of code onto the ecu. The ecu software gives access to the particular ecu model (that is used on a few cars) after a reflash from the oem settings they can enable and disable functions. The stock ecu is limited however to what it can do.
The diy route is never problem free and if you really want a turn key solution you usually pay a fair bit for it.
I’m a bit saddened to hear people having issues with BBR and although i have no affiliation with them I’m happy with my car and the work BBR has done to it (although it wasn’t anything other than fitting a full exhaust, tune, full service, changing all fluids and fit braided hoses) I personally chose not to modify my engine on purpose because i know from experience when you start modifying the engine you reduce its life and reliability.
The other thing I’d like to say is perhaps to contact BBR and see whether they can rectify the issue. I would like to know their take on all this to be honest.
Would love to hear from BBR on this issues because I personally was also thinking off getting mine done there having second thoughts now
Well that’s what they told me i.e. they forgot to delete the line of code that as a consequence of a non standard catalyst being fitted throws up the P0421 (Warm Up Catalyst Below Threshold (Bank 1) fault code all the time. Funny thing is this fault code only started (repeatedly) coming up after they had the car to cure the misfire problem and not after the initial installation, which seems strange as all they told me all they did to cure the misfire was reduce the plug gaps. This suggest that the P0421 issue occurred as a result of them reducing the plug gaps, unless they did something as well that they didn’t tell me about such as changing the mapping to cure the misfire, which resulted in the P0421 fault code and changed the torque curve to produce maximum power at lower revs
As to contacting them, my experience with them was so bad that I really don’t think I will get anywhere, particularly as the BBR warranty has expired. I told them that I did not feel it was performing as well or as smoothly at high revs as it was after the initial installation to cure the misfire but I was told that there was nothing wrong with the car, that I was looking into it too much and to just go and enjoy the car. I have grown weary of trying to have a rational discussion with them and I don’t want to get into a slanging match with them.
What I would say to this is, if everything goes well there is no doubt that the Super 220 upgrade is very good and has been for a number of people. However I think that I would in future make it a condition of purchase that any return trips required to cure warranty problems are to be covered by them.
Do you have both catalysts in your car or did you just fit the mid pipe catalyst and adjust the position of the sensor?
The original OEM exhaust centre section with mid pipe catalyst was left in place and they fitted the high flow manifold with sports cat in place of the standard catted manifold. I have no idea if the position of the sensor was adjusted as BBR did the job. They also had to fit their GT backbox (at additional expense to me) as they said they could not get the advertised power output with the Cobalt backbox that I had fitted.
I just wanted to check whether you have two cats or just one. You have two so no you wouldn’t move the sensor.
I’m just wondering whether its a faulty sensor tbh.
Got you. I would have thought that BBR would have told me if it was a faulty sensor. I did not get that particular fault code (P0421) until after the visit to BBR to have the misfire sorted. The code turned up at my first stop on the motorway after the misfire visit. The engine management light came up as soon as I restarted the engine after having a break at the services. I rang BBR from there and they seemed to know immediately what the problem was i.e. the line of code (as they described it) they had forgotten to delete.