Proposed increased levels of Ethanol in petrol?

[Andykins]

Any comments from forum members on press reports regarding the proposed Increase of Ethanol in petrol from circa 2020. Mazda MX5s listed as one model of car that will not be able to run on this new petrol?

Scaremongering by the press?

[ast]

See https://www.mx5oc.co.uk/forum/yaf_postst38100_BIOFUEL-TIMEBOMB---Bad-news-for-pre-2002-MX-s.aspx

[Mr_Sukebe]

Already discussed.  Run a search on E10 for more info.

In short:

 - Mk3 are apparently fine

 - Mk2 and earlier may have issues due to supposed issues with E10 hardening fuel lines, injector seals and fuel pumps.  The US websites I looked at were suggesting that the damage can take 2-3 years before action is required

 - I approached my local Mazda dealer (Croydon) in Aug.  They themselves are waiting for communications from Mazda UK to clarify

 - E10 is already for sale in Germany and some other countries, so they probably have a better idea of risk than us

[Keat63]

I’m not sure they would do this without offering some form of alternative… would they. ??

What about all the classics.

 

I remember going through this in 2000 when 4 star was banned, there were alternatives in the form of Lead Replacement Additives and cylinder head modifications.

I’d imagine something similar with E10

[Keat63]

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf

 

 

Mazda

E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines introduced in and from the

year 2002, Mazda6 (GG/GY) and models with petrol engines introduced thereafter.

[Mr_Sukebe]

@Keat63

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf

 

 

Mazda

E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines introduced in and from the

year 2002, Mazda6 (GG/GY) and models with petrol engines introduced thereafter.

 

That is potentially ambiguous.

It could be read as and of the following:

 - All Mazda cars built from 2002 onwards are compliant

 - All Mazda cars with newly introduced engines from 2002 onwards are compliant.  (in the case of the MX5, the VVT engine was brought in on that year IIRC)

 - All new Mazda models introduced from 2002 onwards are compliant, i.e. that the NB was introduced in 98’, and isn’t compliant, but the NC, brought in during 2005 is fine

 

I’m still waiting for a completely unambiguous statement.

 

[RichardFX]

Apparently (or so the Wiki suggests) at one time Tesco used 5% Ethanol as an octane booster in their 99RON fuel.  Do they still?  One of the problems with ethanol is that it corrodes aluminium.  However if there is some water in the ethanol, the water reacts first and protects the aluminium from further damage.  But if there is water in the petrol, does this rot the fuel tank?

There are a lot of E10 mandatory fuel mixes around the world, and I guess the car needs to have been designed with all this in mind.  I would be very surprised if Mazda were not compliant.

 

However, do you remember New Formula Shell in the 1980s?  Lead free… 

I had just rebuilt the engine, everything except regrinding the crank on my old 1977 Mk1 Cavalier (a very cheap buy because the engine needed doing). So you can imagine my annoyance when ALL the valve seats and valves on both inlet and exhaust were pitting and losing compression etc after only eight thousand miles pottering around London.  The Shell garage was nearest and cheapest, and the girl behind the till very, very attractive and sunny, so it was an obvious place to buy petrol. 

I needed to have steel valve seats put into the cast-iron head and lap in a new set of harder valves.  We then used that car for another twelve years or so.  I can see oddities like that cropping up with the E5 and E10 fuels on cars not designed for them.

 

[Scottishfiver]

@Mr_Sukebe

@Keat63

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf

 

 

Mazda

E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines introduced in and from the

year 2002, Mazda6 (GG/GY) and models with petrol engines introduced thereafter.

 I’m still waiting for a completely unambiguous statement.

 

 

Bit like Burr-exit then.

[Keat63]

I’m struggling to see the ambiguity.

 

E10 petrol is cleared for use in all models with petrol engines introduced in and from the

year 2002.

 

 

I guess you could have a 2001 car which had been sat in a field for 12 months.

 

 

 

[ast]

Real World Experience

will 10% ethanol damage my '91 Miata? - MX-5 Miata Forum

All the gas stations here have been selling only gas with 10% ethanol for a couple of years. I think my mpg went from 34 to 33, but that’s about it (I have a '92).

Its all we can get in MN. Its been shoved down our throats for at least the last 10 years. Mileage is less but car runs fine.

Here on Long Island we’ve had 10% for three or four years. Owning a boat I’ve seen all sorts of opinions and hard facts as well about ethanol and its effect on fuel lines, tanks and related items. Personal experience has proven that there’s nothing to worry about. I’ve left my tanks full all winter as well as near empty all winter and neither way has proven a problem. I’ve been boating almost 50 years and have tried all sorts of means of long term storage and I can tell you that no action is needed. No stabilizer or anything else. The fuel is sitting in my tanks from as early a late August until as late as mid June and I’ve never had a problem with octane breakdown or any gum build-up. Using the fuel is key. Letting it sit for a year or two would be another story. Ethanol has proven no different than any other gasoline I’ve used in all that time.

I run E10 85 Octane in my car all the time. I live in Colorado and almost all fuel here is E10 Ethanol. I have no problem running it and it cuts emissions by a little bit. Never noticed a drop in fuel mileage I rarely get less then 30 MPG running E10 85 Octane fuel in my 1992.

What I can tell you is that there are tons of Miatae on the road in Minnesota, & they likely have been running on E10 for at least 12 years. You can buy non oxygenated fuel here, but only from a handful of stations, & they have to sell in the premium blend. Most Minnesotans don’t know that they are buying E10, let alone know that there is an alternative.

Here in AZ they have been using 10% enthanol for about 8 years that I can remember. The fuel is an 87 octane, (lowest they sell around me). I run it in an assortment of vehicles from 87 to 2000, 3 of which are /were Miatas. I have had absolutely no issues with fuel related issues or equipment because of this.

Ethanol should be restricted to Scotch (and other beverages). It is all politics. Farmers get more $$ for their corn because of the multiple demands on it (food and fuel). I wish they would get rid of it here in Colorado, as we already pay a horsepower penalty with the altitude, and the E10 adds insult to injury. Lowers emissions, hum?..but lowers gas mileage, so you burn more fuel per mile.
Unfortunately, nobody cares what I think, so if the politicians want E10, that is what we will get. I haven’t seen any harm to my fuel system or engine, although i do get tremendous vapor release from the evap system in really hot weather. Talk about emissions

OKOK I gotta ask , is 10% ethanol in my gas ...... - MX-5 Miata Forum

In the Portland Oregon area (and a lot of other smoggy places) we have been running E-10 in the winter for the last 15 years or so. From November to March it is all that you can buy. No problems with my 91 or 02.

10% blend was selected by EPA because it was the most alcohol that could be put into 1980’s gasoline without hurting the non metal pieces in the gas lines. They really wanted more like 20% in order to supply excess oxygen to the combustion process which would hold down the smog.

You do get less mileage with the blend. How much less is open to debate. Alcohol has about half the BTU value of Gasoline. In the lab this seems to run to about 2% loss. I see more like 10 %. I figure that there may be some timing issues. Also, since it is like 30 to 40 degrees cooler when I am burning this stuff, the air pressure in the tires is less, so there is probably an increase in rolling friction. (It’s high school physics. Boyles Law I thing. High school was so long ago.)

Is 10% Ethanol OK for the NA 1.8L??? - MX-5 Miata Forum

My friends in Thailand refuel their Miatas with 91 or 95 Gasohol (91 or 95 octane gasoline+alcohol). They said their Miatas run just fine but lack of power on acceleration. Furthermore, gasohol tends to vaporize faster than regular gasoline.

10% Ethanol in gas....? - MX-5 Miata Forum

We have no choice; all gas has been E10 for years in St. Louis. No, it won’t hurt anything, except mileage and power (5-10% less of both). The ethanol is basically just filler, diluting the gasoline. It’s not even cheaper than real gas. It’s a total crock, and has no positive value except to line the pockets of agribusiness conglomerates.

All E10 in Cali as well. Other than a drop in mileage, no different. As far as those rubber seals, they might only last 400,000 miles vs. 500,000 miles

E85 Long Term Use - MX-5 Miata Forum

Ethanol can seriously break a fuel system, even to the point where it becomes a literal fire hazard, however this is limited to much older fuel systems built in the times of leaded gasoline. The old camshaft-driven rubber-diaphragm-based fuel pumps will eventually perforate the diaphragm and stop pumping – which is the best case scenario. Worse though is when the old rubber hoses are eaten alive by the alcohol content in “newer” gas.

My father-in-law’s 69 Corvette Stingray caught on fire while warming up in his driveway (fortunately, he caught it quickly and the situation ended with very minor damage) because the rubber fuel line ruptured and hosed down the running hot engine with fuel. Upon further inspection of the ruptured line, the hose was soggy and mushy all the way through and was obviously rapidly degrading – almost surely due to the ethanol-mixed fuel that it was never intended for.

This isn’t an issue in modern fuel systems, any of the NC’s and ND’s should never have any problems with ethanol. But I feel the clarity is necessary: ethanol in the fuel, even as simple as E10 CAN be a serious fuel system issue.

ok to clarify anything built after '84 when the epa gasahol compatibility went into effect. didn’t think it was necessary in a forum for a car that is only 2 model years old. But it’s still ignorance in definition

Nothing in a car built after 84 will dissolve into mush and catch fire from ethanol. All the black goo issues early on were from the gasoline additives crapping out of solution. I’ve read reports it still happens occasionally. The fix is to run a tank of gasoline occasionally, not rip out and replace all the soft lines.

I don’t believe we should censor the forum for ignorant people and keep them ignorant. The statement of only in nc or newer promotes ignorance.

lets agree that in this forum for this car E85 is not an issue if tuned for properly and anyone else reading this forum and thinking it applies directly to another car needs to be smacked on the back of the head

All this talk of fuel reminds me its been a while since I’ve run a can of Proboost through a MX5.

[Gerryn]

Point well made By Saz methinks - no argument from me. Only point in above posts is that NBFL’s were available here from August 2001, so to say the model was first introduced in 2002 is not true. Mine was built later in October 2001, though available at the dealer one week before I bought it at the end of February 2002; - and I’m not losing any sleep over E10 after reading all those quotes.

[ast]

Reviving this thread, as the topic is back in the news. Nothing new from stateside to suggest E10 is harmful to older cars. Gets a bit more uncertain with E15.

[RichardFX]

@saz9961

Reviving this thread, as the topic is back in the news. Nothing new from stateside to suggest E10 is harmful to older cars. Gets a bit more uncertain with E15.

Nothing new with Ethanol as fuel, as Saz pointed out in the earlier post. 

I think E100 fuel is the future, with hybrid regenerative braking using new technology super-capacitors to minimise use of Lithium.

See much more about how Brazil has produced and used it in various blends, and made suitable vehicles for many years in the long, long and detailed Wiki article.

[ast]

The uncertainty, and it would be impossible for Mazda to really determine, is the compatability of pre-2002 rubber on MX5s with the ethanol content. I suspect that all VVTs should be treated as effectively the same.Its probably also correct to assume NB6-FLs also contain simlar rubber materials. Logically, you would think that NB8 and NB6s would have similar rubber, but there is a significant different in the engines used. And further difference with NA6 and NA8 (phase 1 and phase 2).

Anecdotal evidence is that E10 is backwards compatible with Mk1 and Mk2 models.

There are three issues arising to consider with increasing ethanol content:

1. Compatability with fuel lines, tank lining etc.
2. Octane rating
3. Increasing ethanol content increases absorption of water into petrol, ie. ethanol-petrol goes off, and the more ethanol in it, the faster it goes bad. An extreme result is damage to a fuel pump.

Hard to find evidence of sustained running of older cars on E15 and above, except that occasional refills with lower ethanol content fuel is recommended. The issue with higher ethanol content fuels is that it not mixed by the oil companies, and so the Americans are seeing variations in quality and consistancy.

I suppose it might mean those who store their cars for extended periods haave to be more mindful of the fuel in the tank.