I had a nasty surprise yesterday when I got a notice of intended prosecution through the letterbox. I’m normally very careful and have never had anything like this in 33 years of motoring. When I came to read it, it related to a 50mph stretch of motorway between the M606 and M62 and I was zapped at 58mph at 6am! I looked at the photo and there are no other cars (or anything else) in the picture, just an empty motorway. The 50mph stretch only lasts for a few hundred yards and I do remember slowing down for the 50mph sign, although clearly not slowing down quite enough. Even so, I’m sure that I only exceeded the limit for a matter of seconds. I’m not a speed merchant, but am really disappointed that a momentary lapse can seemingly blemish an otherwise clean licence and presumably increase my insurance premium.
What I was wondering was, if I right a letter pointing out that it was on a deserted motorway at 6am, are they likely to take that into account, or do they not take road conditions into account. I mean, if there was snow or ice on the road no sensible motorist would drive at 50mph, even if it was technically legal to do so.
It’s such a shame isn’t it. That there are more and more speed cameras and less and less traffic police. I’m sure a policeman in the same situation would’ve given a caution and a reminder that the limit is there for a reason and then let you on your way. Cameras have no such conscience. They don’t recognise the condition of the vehicle, the ability of the driver, the conditions of the road or the congestion upon it - they just see speed and as we’re all regularly reminded; Speed Kills.
The IAM use an relative term called ‘appropriate speed’ but cameras don’t recognise that I’m afraid. You can try and contest it and I wish you the best of luck.
To be honest, These days most insurers seem to see 3 speeding points as just the driver being unlucky. I spent 10 years with a near as darn it constant 6 points. This was because within months of 3 of them expiring I’d end up managing to get another 3 (Always in work vans, Never in any of the cars I’ve owned). When I got the first ones I had a play with an online quote site, First getting a quote with a clean licence and then with the “Naughty boy points” declaired… It surprised me that the difference was less than £4 back then !
About 5 years ago I decided that I wasn’t going loose my licence because of an idiot boss yelling “ALL THIS WORK IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND HAS TO ALL BE DONE BY 5PM!” down the phone with me (after a college lost his licence for 3 months and was unceremoniously fired on the spot !!!), So at that point I started to only drive up to the speed limit (When in a work van. ) and now have a clean licence… And at renewal time my insurance still went up by around 40 quid regardless !
So what I’m saying is these days, Due to indiscriminate speed cameras, insurance company’s see points as a common thing and don’t load up your premiums like they used to 15 years ago (Back when the way to get the points was to do something stupid enough for plod to take an interest and stop you for a “Chat”). Now 3 (Or even 6) speed related points are almost considered the norm by insurers.
If your insurer starts sucking their teeth when you tell them about the points just go to one of the many others (Most of them) that has a more enlightened outlook about them.
I got done recently for 58mph by a camera van located about 50 metres before a derestricted sign at the top of Detling Hill in Kent.
Was leaving a 50 limit, 6pm, dual carriageway, rush hour and I was only staying with the flow of traffic so they must have got hundreds!
Miffed of course but they offered a speed awareness course which I have accepted as it doesn’t give points and you don’t have to advise your insurance company.
Ok, it will cost more than the fine (£85 against £60) but I’m quite interested to see what these course are like - not just from a personal view but also because I’m involved with a local car club so might give me something to write about.
Would it be worth writing and asking for the course instead of the fine & points? Particularly because of the circumstances?
Don`t get me started on the merits (or otherwise) of speed cameras but my advice is this- always use a sat-nav for any journey that takes you into an area away from home where you do not know all the hiding places for camera vans. The sat nav will tell you your arrival time and, if you are going to be late for an appointment, you can always (providing you have hands-free phone) call ahead to let the other party know you are delayed, rather than speeding for the sake of it.
Before sat navs (and for a few years before mobile phones!) when I regularly used to clock up 60,000miles/year in some pretty quick company cars, I would often tend to speed rather than be late arriving with a customer, trust me unless you are a fire truck or ambulance driver, being 5 mins late is far more preferable to a ban or even worse being on 11 points and still having a licence (points are negated by a ban, even a 7 day ban…)
GPS systems will give a more accurate indication of your speed and will often allow you to gain a few mph on the speedo and still be within the law.
No excuse for being done by a fixed camera as they really should only be in areas of accident blackspot and highly visible, but some of the sneaky hiding places for mobile jobbies are seriously suspect as they can cause drivers to suddenly brake (even those that werent even speeding) its truly crazy.
If you choose to challenge the conviction, the police will inform the magistrates that as you were clocked at 58mph then your speedo would in all probability have been reading 63mph+ am afraid the time of day, previous record, emptyness of the road will all count for diddly squat.
I personally believe there should be a separate driving test, just for motorway driving entitlement, also an advanced driving test that entitles those who pass (and a re-test every 2 years)to have a different colour number-plate and allow them to use a higher (say 90mph on motorways only) without fear of being speed-taxed, presently these people need to members of a masonic lodge or the correct golf club to enjoy such privilages
You are definately not the first person to have an un-blemished driving record tarnished by speed cameras, way of the world -at least in Britain!
I got three points on the day my bike insurance ran out - I called the insureres to change the details on their quote and the premium actually want down from £325 to £306. All I changed was the three points on my license. Weird. I called my car insurers and neither policy was increased by the three points.
I wouldn’t try to contest it. Whatever the mitigating circumstances they have evidence that you were over the limit. The validity of the limit is up for debate, but if you broke it you get the fine. Also it’s hard to argue that you were safe doing whatever speed it is if you failed to see the speed limit sign and adjust your speed to suit. I’m sure you were safe, it’s just hard to argue a case in favour of speeding.
Just short of having a clean licence for 25 years, I overtook a car that was pulling-over while driving out of Alcester. He pulled over, I put my foot down and wizzed past, quick and safe. Even though I was in a 1.6 Astra, I just happened to be going under a speed camera, and was clocked at 48mph! I didn’t realise a 1.6 Astra estate, fully laden, could get up to that speed from 30 so quickly!
These days if overtaking a vehicle doing 40 in a 50 limit I get very tense and back off the throttle when going past, just in case there’s a speed camera that I haven’t seen - really b****rs up your overtaking technique!
Further to my earlier post and Taff’s one about those in the right “club”, on M20 this morning just south of the M25 I became aware of a motor bike approaching from behind at a fair speed.
Stuck to my indicated 80 as I knew that was ok but was a little surprised to see that it was a police bike that came past definitely doing over the limit. So I decided to up my speed and follow from a discrete distance to see what speed he was doing. Bearing in mind the conditions were good, traffic light and he did NOT have any sirens or lights on. Nor was he chasing anyone as nobody had come past for a considerable time before.
Well I took mine up to an indicated 100 and he was still going away. By now we were on the A20 approaching the 2 lane section near Swanley so I thought I’d better ease off a bit just in case, but he was gone.
What are the rules regarding when the police are allowed to speed? I thought it was only if on a shout… I have his registration number if required…
He’s trained… yes yes, i don’t agree with it but they’ll argue that fact and then ask why you know he was doing over a ton (rather than over 70) The stupid thing about the ‘trained’ argument is that fellow bluelighters (ambulance n fire) are also trained but it won’t be an excuse for them. Of course, you could find the bike and place an anonymous note on the windshield “I know what you did last night” **********************
AA~ if they give you a chance of the ‘slapped wrist’ course, then take it. I know only some of the brit Constabularies do it but it’s pointless arguing the case as it’ll just give the powers-that-be the chance to do official finger-waggling It doesn’t matter how wrong the system. I keep arguing that just because something is illegal it doesn’t make it wrong - and vice versa. Your saying about 50 in snow and ice being a prime example of the latter.
I’m sure they’d react in a fair and even-handed way to your story of following a police bike at 100mph.
I went on a ride with a police rider on an umarked police bike a couple of weeks ago. He said that any time it looked like he was speeding was because of the difference between his “calibrated” speedo and my standard one. Which sounds like a standard first line of defence against this sort of accusation. My speedo must be significantly more than 10% out…
I live in Shipley and use the 606, its a funny stretch of road People push the 50 limit all the time on the bend, I went through a red light 1.1 sec left turn at mannigham lane traffic lights first time in 30 years of driving. fine points, was rushing back from hospital with a sick child still no excuse, only 3 sets of light have cameras on them in Bradford and I went through one of them.
Sorry to hear about your Speeding Ticket. I have read your post and noted your reasoning.
If you contest the fixed penalty notice you will be required to attend a magistrates court to explain your side of the story. Being it was a fixed penalty notice that was issued you do not stand much chance of getting that ticket removed. You will then no doubt have cost awarded against you and your fine will be given out by the court you attend and will probally rise to £100.00.
All us motorist are in the same position with regards to Speed Cameras so take a bit of advice and pay your fixed penalty notice and move on.
Now andyelcomb are you going to admit in a court of law, that just for the hell of it you followed a Police Motorcyclist at 100mph. just to see what speed he was doing. Do you really want to lose your licence for 6 months on your own say so. What induced you to break the law for no reason and admit it on line? The Police rider could have been on so many missions it is not worth thinking about. Have you been trained to drive at speed? Oh by the way I have. 70mph is the limit and I stick to it.
In my opinion there is no point in writing a letter because of your words I have highlighted above.
I am no fan of cameras enforcing the law, and have posted before that I would like to see more real people enforcing all traffic laws (especially those which cannot currently be identified by technology), however, the law is clear, the limit was 50 and you were going faster, while a police officer may have exercised judgment that irrelevant to this occurrence.
I don’t mind putting my hands up to an error if need be, I live in the real world. It’s the one that has many shades of grey and isn’t black and white. It’s ok if some people want to bumble along trusting that those in authority are always right and to blindly toe the legal line. Despite being an extremely socially-conscious individual (who doesn’t see anyone else picking up other people’s litter from the local lanes for example…) unfortunately I have a slightly more rebellious attitude when it comes to the nanny-state doctrines imposed on us when it comes to driving. I also have a strong sense of fairness and find the instances “one rule for us and another rule for them” particularly irksome.
I’m not going to try and justify my comments earlier, they were only thrown into the general mix to add to the discussion and maybe elicit some different responses - result!
As others have said, whether a certain speed is realistic or dangerous is (ignoring what the legislation might say) entirely dependant upon the prevailing circumstances. In the original poster’s case it is clear that the law is not necessarily appropriate and it is lamentable that we aren’t able (or willing) to come up with a more enlightened method of enforcement - one that is truly related to the safety and well-being of the whole rather than a mindless revenue-earning machine.
So, yes, just for the hell of it (your words - my decision was a much more considered one that took in very many variables) for a while I speeded up to get an idea of what speed the bike was using. I may not have an “official” licence or training certificate that says I may do so, but as it happens I am old enough, experienced enough (and ugly enough) to judge these things to a very high degree. Without wishing to cast aspersions, the fact that you say you are keen to religiously stick to the arbitary limit of 70mph worries me a little. You are of course entitled to drive to that limit and below, but if 70 is safe, how come 71 or 75 or 80 or 100mph isn’t? I also sincerely trust that despite that limit you do remain in the nearside lanes unless actually overtaking and you aren’t one of those hard-core middle and outer lane hoggers?
Anyway, this is all good stuff and I find it fascinating how different people (that in this case have a similar vehicle interests) can have different views on the same matters.
While obviously I’m an awesome driver and capable of deciding my own safe speed I’m also aware of how dreadful everyone else is. They implement poorly thought out actions with a total lack of ability and are too riddled with Dunning-Krugar effect to realise how bad they are at the very basics of driving like looking out of the window and hitting the pedal in the middle when things get close.
So I’m glad we have a clear and simple system to keep them in check. I’d prefer it if we had a nice relaxed squaron of traffic officers in a good mood to police driving standards, but we don’t. We have to make do with the enforcement we can afford, and if that includes mindless machines to arbitarily send fines to other people who aren’t as awesome as me then I’m willing to live with the limits we have in order to keep the stupid in check. The fact that I’ve been caught by them just serves to underline what an excellent peice of work Dunning and Krugar did.
Speed doesn’t kill, but speed also doesn’t improve the safety of the stupid, the half-blind, the driver who is desperately late or just desperate for a wee, or just the people driving home down the same old road for the 300th time that year. Arbitary blanket limits are the lowest common denominator, but without them we have to trust indivuals to police themselves. And the majority of other people are dumber than average*.
The only reasons for breaking the arbitary speed limit are based on poor time management, the desire to have fun, or in very rare cases the need to get somewhere quickly to save someone’s life. Not good enough reasons, except for the one that means you get blue flashing lights on your roof and even then it sometimes goes wrong. The most common reason for being caught breaking the speed limit is that the driver wasn’t paying attention**.
I like driving fast. I like riding fast bikes. But I’ve go enough respect for social responsibility to realise that in a world made of shades of grey my off-white fun might be someone else’s battleship grey unacceptable danger. At least with simple clear black-and-white limits everyone gets treated the same. Even if it means we all get treated like idiots when it’s 6am on a sunny deserted motorway that’s being used to store traffic cones.
* really. Do the maths.
** actually the most common reason is a long winded ramble about sneaky enforcement, undehand tactics or how individuals can judge better than comittees, which basically means they weren’t paying attention and won’t admit it.
Excellent retort and thank goodness we are able to have varying views expressed in such an intelligent and articulate manner. (Have I seen this before though?)
Yes, your way does mean we all get treated like idiots, but my view is that we should continue to resist that inexorable push to pander to those of inferior intellect - otherwise what’s the point?
[:D] I write a new reply every time, I’m sure it takes less time than a search then cut&paste. It’s certainly more fun.
Yeah, blanket enforcement treats everyone like idiots, but then there are a lot of idiots about. If you feel so inclined: machine enforcement is reasonably easy to avoid, if you pay attention, and if you are reasonably clever you’ll be able to drive as fast as you like without ever doing anything that would get you in trouble. Obeying speed limits is just laziness (except for the average cameras - they just mean you picked the wrong road/numberplate).
Although if I go for a blast down my favourite B-road I’d rather the chap coming the other way was being sensible.
My advice. Send the NIP back correctly completed and wait and see what happens.
I think at 58 in a 50 you will probably be offered a speed awareness course which will cost a few quid but not earn you any points so is a good option.
If a fixed penalty notice comes back they are unlikely to entertain any mitigation so you will then have to decide whether to pay up or elect to be dealt with by a court. Then you are in the lap of the magistrates who may accept your mtigation and be very lenient or take umbridge at you wasting their time when the matter could have been dealt with at the fixed penalty stage and hammer you. This is unless you can argue the offence isn’t proved as the limit wasn’t correctly made or signed or the measuring equipment wasn’t calibrated or operated correctly.
I assume you are now paying more attention to road signs.
Lets take your scenario, you see a Police Officer riding at excessive speed. You, for whatever reason decide to tag along for the fun of it and your speed reaches 100mph (do you not think that is irresponsible to start with). That Police Officer could for example have been an advanced rider for the Royal Protection Unit other riders would have been following. If any one of them or any other Officer had seen your actions you would have been stopped reported for excess speed taken to court and disqualified for at least 6 months. Driving at that speed carries an automatic disqualification.
I like most people do not agree with speed cameras or camera vans, but they are here for a purpose.
I value my driving licence so I stick to the speed limits. I can speed with the best of you, but my age is going against me, I know that my reaction times are not as quick as they were thirty years ago and concentration can lapse briefly, so yes I follow the rules. Safety first.
) and now have a clean licence… And at renewal time my insurance still went up by around 40 quid regardless ! 
