Tap and die set

Technical Area Routine Servicing
2

Hi

I am looking to buy a tap and die set.

It will mostly be used to repair threads rather than cutting new threads.

I usually buy “laser” branded tools as I believed they were British made and generally a higher quality.

 

I have found this laser set at machinemart for £189.  The advert says it it made from alloy steel.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/laser-4554-110-piece-tap-and-die-set-metric/

I have also found this on eBay for £50.  The advert says it is tungsten steel.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tungsten-WRENCH-TAP-and-Die-Set-Cutter-Kit-110PCS-Metric-Steel-Screw-Bolt-Case/263997011985?epid=15020622291&hash=item3d7772b811:g:pu4AAOSwYCRbyYMa

 

They look identical!

 

Does anybody know if they are the same?

 

Could they be the same but made if different type of steel and therefore different quality?

 

or does this mean “laser“ are just cheaper products, rebranded, and four times the price?

 

If anybody could share any knowledge I would appreciate this as could save me £140.  But I don’t mind paying if different and better quality.

Cheers

Mark

 

 

3

To be clear I’m no expert but if this is for occasional cleaning up of threads then I’d save some money and buy something like this

http://amzn.eu/d/3ZzzVJo

I’d be fairly sure the two you have spotted are indeed the same item. 

4

I’ve not found Laser tools to be the best, Draper are a good make.
Ask yourself would you ever need M2 M3 M4 M11 BSF Whitworth BSP BSC etc taps and dies, Machine Mart (only in my opinion) are not the best quality products.
Personally i would (and do) go to your local engineers supplier and buy from where the tradesmen buy, and personalise your tools to what you actually need rather than buy a bulk kit 65% or more of it you’ll never need.

Example…i have a 62 piece Britool socket set that was a replacement from when my tools got stolen 30 years ago £560 worth, full of AF Whitworth BSF and Metric, i can honestly say 50% or more of the sockets have never been used.

Today i have good quality specifically hand picked Snap-on, Mac, Bluepoint and various other tools that i use all day and every day.

The Britool kit is buried deep in my van and possibly sees daylight once a year…if that.

What i’m trying to say is buy only what you need.

5

 

I would have no qualms about buying this kit.

 

6

If you only need to clean threads then a cheap carbon steel tap or die would do the job.

Taps and dies tend to be made of two materials, carbon steel and high speed steel (HSS), if you wanted to make threads or use on a harder material such as stainless steel you’d need a HSS tool. If you tried using a carbon steel tap on stainless steel it would most likely either not cut or just chew up as if it was made from cheese.

Bear in mind that you will probably only need some of the sizes from a set, especially if you were wanting to use it on a MX-5 as once you get above M8 thread Japanese cars and motorcycles tend to use metric fine thread.

If using on an MX-5 the most likely sizes are;

M4 x 0.7

M5 x 0.8

M6 x 1.0

M8 x 1.25

M10 x 1.25

M12 x 1.25

The last one would only possibly be needed if working on larger parts of the car, but I included it in the list so you could see the pitch of the thread is the same 1.25 mm on the M10 and M12 threads (metric fine) as the M8 (metric coarse).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

What I did was only buy as I needed tools, that way it would probably cost about the same as a larger set and you can buy better quality tools that will last longer and work better.

I’d also look at a thread file, Sykes Pickavant do a good one. I’ve used mine on several occasions to get myself out of trouble.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sykes-Pickavant-Metric-Thread-Restorer-File-01560200/131552839923?epid=22008987152&hash=item1ea12908f3:g:XJMAAOxyUI1TIztF:rk:13:pf:0

Laser tools are best described as acceptable quality. Nothing special but will do the job.

They are about the same as Draper, Clarke (Machine Mart’s own brand), Sealey, etc. A lot of the tools will be made in the same factory.

An example I remember when I worked at Machine Mart was a drill that B & Q sold for £30. We sold one, exactly the same drill except for the Clarke branding and packaging; £117!!!

 

7

10 minutes research will tell you that “The Tool Connection”, which owns the Laser brand, owns a foundry in Sheffield. This foundry only makes specialist tools. Exactly the same set can be found on Alibaba, offered to OEMs in a variety of cases. Laser is probably having some tools made in the UK, some designed in the UK, but made elsewhere, and some just sourced as an OEM, from a certain tool maker in Ningbo.

I’ve had several “German made” tap and die sets. Always managed to snap the small taps. Not sure that means anything about the quality of the taps, my cackhandedness, or that taps are a wear item.

Most of my late Grandad’s tool kit, gathered when he was a young man in the 1930s-40s, were American made. Interesting, following my Leatherman question, to find that Leatherman was forced to remove “Made in USA” from their tools, after a court case over the Swiss origin of the files they used.

I’m not sure, in terms of quality, in the 21st Century, where there are now globally-audited manufacturing systems, it really matters where a tool is made. What matters is whether the supplier (seller) takes responsibility for what they sell. So Laser offers some nifty guarantee on quite a lot of their tools, but not others. The others being, for instance, ratchets, because Laser are not making the ratchets themselves, or even designing the ratchets themselves, but just sourcing something ready made.

Machine Mart owns Clarke. During the recession, their business boomed, because their trade customers switched from name brand tools to Clarke brands. Cheaper (priced) tools, but no middle man to pay. The trade generally trusted Clarke, enabling them to add a fair markup to the £30 B&Q drill.

If I was buying for my MX5, I’m not sure I need a 110 piece tap set, but then, maybe the tap set os for something else. For me, I use these so infrequently, that I’d probably keep buying the £10 German made little sets off the market.

I have a mishmash of tools. My 25 year old Halfords ratchet literally take a beating. Ir was probably made in China, but performs flawlessly; its a design that I haven’t seen elsewhere. A Clarke ratchet on the hand was useless from day one, but is useful to hit a cd multichanger with, to unjam disc cassettes. Years ago, I picked up a random “Scorpion” branded 3/8" drive from Homebase; I think it was an American brand, made in Mexico. USP was it had a T-bar ratchet mechanism, useful in confined spaces, where there isn’t the space to swing the ratchet. I’ve only broken 2 tools; a Halfords ratchet spanner and a half inch to three either socket adapter. The former; Halfords stood by their product, and gave me a new one. The second; I was stupid, using a half inch torque wrench with 3/8" sockets as a breaker bar on a suspension job (my hobbyist 3/8" breaker bar didn’t really count as a breaker bar). The half inch sockets I have are random, but my favourite 12mm socket I think is some rough looking Indian socket; 6-sided socket, fits nuts perfectly, never falls off the extension.

8

The magic words when buying taps and dies are High Speed Steel (stamped HSS) 

Lesser words, but still important are made in England / Germany / Sweden 

 

 

Everything else is Poo 

 

 

Buy what you need, when you need it, and one day you will own a set.

 

Paul G

(47 years of working with metals)

9

I’ve dealt with these guys for 30 years and they are great, individual taps and dies, quick cheap postage http://www.tapdie.com/index.html

 

Just to add, both the sets you list will be el cheapo chinese stuff. Of the 180 parts you will probably use no more than half a dozen, half of them are imperial sizes.

10

These are also used on Mazdas, M6 fine, M8 fine and M10 fine. I will post later the actual pitch.

Get one of these a thread guage as this tells you which pitch the thread is.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/52-Blade-Measuring-Gauge-Metric-Imperial-System-Screw-Pitch-55-60-Degree-Thread/183415555444?epid=7023372346&hash=item2ab46b4574:g:PV8AAOSwVMtbRyQe:rk:6:pf:0

I also suggest a micrometer but if you buy a digital one keep it in the house away from dampness.

Like this.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-150mm-LCD-Digital-Vernier-Caliper-Micrometer-Measure-Tool-Gauge-Ruler/263294685853?epid=1174194734&hash=item3d4d96129d:g:MS8AAOSwgYdb1mOT:rk:9:pf:0

11

BannedBiker mentioned it earlier but I would second getting one of those multi ended thread files. Had mine since apprentiship days and saved me on many occasions, recently when changing my track rod ends and the rod threads were so crusty that they needed a good clean to let the nuts move freely. 

12

My previous company imported tools from the far east, which we would repackage and relabel for some of the UK’s well known tools brands and retail stores.

To cover my own rear, I can’t divulge which companies we worked for.

However, what I can tell you is:

A tool set costing say £5.00, would be rebranded by us, and then sold to the afore mentioned tool companies for about £10.00, who I guess would sell to the larger retailers for about £20.00, who would then sell it to you and I on the street for about £40.

 

I once walked into a large retail store (with a big orange logo, sounds a bit like “me & you”), and took particular notice of an SDS drill bit, 32mm x 450mm long.

Retail price,  pennies short of £30.

We imported these, for around £2.50.

 

I worked out, that everyone who touched these, would look to double his money, the more hands it goes through, the more expensive it becomes.

13

Many of my hand tools came from a well known supermarket, including “value” tap and die sets, which have proved perfectly adequate for many small jobs (provided the thread pitch is as required because, some metric bolt diameters can have as many as three different pitches). Because of this, or for something more specialised or critical (a good example - fitting seat belt mounting bolts) I do tend to buy a good quality single item!

14

Hi Mark,

As BannedBiker states you do not need a full set of taps and dies and often sets are the more common metric course thread, although you may need more than one tap wrench and diestock.

Try https://www.tracytools.com/

They are very good and have a choice of pitches for each thread in either C/s or HSS. Many of the Mazda threads are metric fine.

Dave

15

Lots of good advice on here, with all sets there are a certain amount of “magical sizes” that in my forty one years in engineering I have never encountered such as M7, M9, M11. Some such as M2 are also so far “out there” that you will be very lucky if you ever see such a thread unless you are a sewing machine technician or optician perhaps, so you are paying for ballast in many of those cases.

Purchasing the individual sizes you need may be the best course, not only do you avoid a box of unused sizes, you can cherry pick the better manufacturers. For just cleaning up threads most should be okay, if you are actually cutting new bolts or nuts a stepping of the thread cutting is important to avoid overloading the tool, for this reason the taps usually come in sets of three, taper, 2nd and plug whilst good quality dies have a split in them to allow the dies to cut over-size on the first run before closing up to correct size for finishing.

The main difference in the two kits you listed is one is purely metric whilst the other is a combination, the metric set has some of the Mazda threads I have encountered whereas the combination set does not.

 

Tap sizes: 4x0.7, 5x0.8, 7x1/0.75, 8x1.25/1/0.75, 9x0.75/1/1.25, 10x0.75/ 1/1.25/1.5, 11x0.75/1/1.25/1.5, 12x 0.75/1/1.25/1.5/1.75, 14 x1, 16x1/1.5/2, 18x1.5, 14 x 2/1.5/1.25

Die Sizes: M2x0.4. M3x0.5, M4x0.7, M6x0.75,M6x1, M7x0.75, M7x1, M8x0.75,M8x1, M8x1.25, M9x0.75, M9x1, M9x1.25, M10x0.75,M10x1, M10x1.5, M10x1.75, M11x0.75, M11x1, M11X1.25, M11x1.5, M12X0.75, M12x1, M12x1.25, M12x1.5, M12x1.75, M14x1, M14x1.25, M14x1.5, M14x2, M16x1, M16x1.5, M16x2, M18x1.5

SAE DIE SIZES:1/4-20; 1/4-24; 1/4-28; 5/16-18; 5/16-24; 3/8-16; 3/8-24; 7/16-14; 7/16-20; 1/2-16; 1/2-20; 9/16-8; 5/8-11; 9/16-12; 3/4-10; 3/4-16; 5/8-18
METRIC DIE SIZES: 6X1.0; 8X1.25; 10X1.5; 10X1.0; 11X1.5; 1/8-27NPT; 1/4-18NPT; 12X1.75; 12X1.25; 14X1.25; 18X1.5 
SAE TAP SIZES: 3/4-10; 3/4-10; 3/4-16; 5/8-18; 1/4X18NPT; 1/8-27NPT; 5/16-24; 5/16-18; 1/4-32; 1/4-24; 1/4-28; 1/4-20; 7/16-20; 1/2-13; 1/2-20; 9/16-12; 9/16-18; 5/8-11; 3/8-16; 3/8-24; 7/16-14 
METRIC TAP SIZES; 18X1.5; 14X1.25; 6X1.0; 12-24; 10-32; 6-32; 4-40; 12X1.25; 12X1.75; 8X1.25; 10X1.5; 10X1; 11X1.6; 8-32; 10-24

If a set is still your preferred route have a look at something like this one, still a lot of redundant sizes but they do have the 10mm x 1.25mm for Mazda exhaust nuts and bolts :slight_smile: They might be made of toffee but could be enough for emergency use.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tungsten-WRENCH-TAP-and-Die-Set-Cutter-Kit-110PCS-Metric-Steel-Screw-Bolt-Case/113337159069?epid=15020622291&hash=item1a636bcd9d:g:ow4AAOSwqaNbKgfZ:rk:6:pf:0

16

I only buy the tap or die I need.  Chances are that it will be the one I’ll use most and it will need replacing again. They are consumables, just like drills.

It gets worse, for a given size and pitch of tap you might need several profiles for specific applications.  For example I used to have Taper, First cut, Second cut, Plug cut, for 4BA, 6BA, M4, M3, M2.5 (for my work years ago in electronics). I’ve lost track of how many M3 taps I’ve binned over the years.

I still have the correct taps for helicoil inserts on Vextra, Astra, Cavalier exhaust studs - effectively a non-size that comes with the helicoils.  I also still have a bag I bought from an instrument fitter when he retired of maybe a hundred assorted old Imperial (Whit, UNC, UNF, etc) taps and dies suitable for old UK bikes and cars  - a fiver in 1973 and I’ve never used any of them but almost unobtainable now!

The most important items is the tool-stock holding the taps and dies.  Always have the exact right size both in the jaws and for the way you will be holding it. There is nothing worse than the tap going in off-line and jamming and wrecking the hole, simply because it was sloppy in the jaw or one cannot hold it square to the work.  For small threads I prefer a T-bar Tap-wrench where the bar can be locked centrally on the the top of the tee.  My M&W trio are really old and I cannot find them for sale now, but one of these ratchet T-bar sets might be useful in confined spaces.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01BJ1BSRC/

 

 

17

These kits are great, I’ve seen them with from various brands in the UK.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/14x-Thread-Repair-Kit-Laser-5555c/1207612758?iid=271290094025&chn=ps

I’ve used one professionally for years, get’s a lot more use than my Tap & Die set.

18

 

https://www.beal.org.uk/tools/miscellaneous-tools/tap-die-set-40-piece.html

Cheap and cheerful, but if all you want it for is occasional use, then will do the job suitably.

I have one, and use it on occasion.

 

If you can hang on until Black Friday, we will have a 10 or 15% discount on the store for a few days, alternatively, if your’e in the leeds area, call in to our trade counter, ask for me, and I’m sure I can get you a trade discount.

19

Local to P&P in Sheffield are T& J Hall http://www.gjhall.co.uk/tools/threading-tools?type=product&url=threading-tools they manufacture a full range of Taps and Dies