Weak alternator?

Been having a few little electrical niggles in the '5 which i thought were just down to them having a small battery but my dad has just suggested it could be the alternator which seems to make sense.

 

Symptoms are when the revs drop when idling when i use the electric windows when they are already fully in that position, e.g. if im putting them up and continue to hold the switch for a couple of seconds after they’re fully up. This also actually happens when using the hazard lights - the revs drop slightly as if the engine was going to stall every time they flash.

The main one though is when i had my little sound system in, i’ve upgraded the door speakers to MTX Thunder and added a 10" subwoofer of the same range, all connected to a 1300w Vibe amp which i never had any problems with in the old SEAT, but in the '5 the amp cuts out into protection mode every few seconds, even at very very low volumes until the engine is warmed up (???). Amp is now busted though, just goes straight into protection as soon as it’s started up. I also noticed that the amp would cut out every time i did the aformentioned thing with the electric windows even for just a fraction of a second.

 

So does anyone else get anything similar to these problems, or do i have a dodgy battery/alternator?

lew - holding the window switch down when the window is fully open or closed will overload the circuit - the motor has reached the extent of it’s travel and is now stalled, so you are trying to run a stalled motor - result, high current draw. If you do this for long enough, you’ll have more problems than falling engine revs. And yes- this happens on my 2002 sport as well.

With respect, your amp is way too high an output - I ran an airport sound system (several hundred speakers and horns) with less than 1000w, though the rating of those amplifiers is different to that of so called ‘hi-fi’ systems. With the engine at idle, and not yet warmed up, the alternator is basically also at idle, and what power is available is recharging the battery, if you load it down with this kind of unit, then the alternator will drag down the rev’s on the engine, as it struggles to supply the power required.

Trying to shut windows which are already shut has the same effect, so there’s an easy answer to both your problems, 1) don’t try to shut windows further than they will go, and 2) sell that crazy amp, plus the speakers if they need that kind of power!

If you want to check the alternator output at idle, then the voltage across the battery should be around 14.5 volt, get somebody to try and open or close a window more than normal and see what that drops to. Less than 12v means you are trying to suck more current out the battery than the alternator can put in, and the rev’s will drop accordingly.

Car electrical systems are designed to carry a normal load, especially at idle, which is one good reason why manufacturers do not install 1000W amplifiers, even as an option!

The MX5 has a fairly small battery. It is no surprise that the instruments and other electrical equipment go into “stealth” mode when you turn the engine over on the starter motor.

I’m not clued up on high end ICE systems,but I do know that cars like the BMW 5 series sometimes have an auxilliary battery to run all the toys and goodies off. Is a second battery something that is often used in cars fitted with powerful music systems and would it be an option for you?

Thanks for the replies people, i know those things are normal now and not down to a dodgy part in my car. Still just seems a bit strange that the revs dip just by using the hazard lights though lol, surely they shouldnt draw enough current to do that.

 

niggle, i dont think a second battery is used much but i do know that some crazy systems use several high-output alternators, but for smaller applications with a subwoofer like mine, a power capacitor with a capacitance of 1F or more is often used to smooth out the power supply and provide enough instant power to the amp for stuff like heavy bass hits which draw a lot of current, taking such loads off the battery itself.

 

The problem with the amplifier is it would have been getting voltage drops because of the speakers suddenly drawing large amounts of current which is why it would cut out into protection mode, but as i mentioned this also happened at tiiiiiny volumes for a few minutes - the theory about the alternator being busy charging the battery answers this though.

 

Gerryn, I never did use the full power of the amplifier and probably never will, but surely the 1300w would just provide plenty of headroom rather than actually causing problems? Should i really be looking for a less powerful amp for the '5?

 lew -

You’re partially correct is assuming that the amp will give you ‘lots of headroom’ - if you mean capability of handling sound levels, but a high output amp cranked down to low volume will miss out on the high end especially - these frequencies are always lower in level than low end sound, so you would be missing out on the full spectrum of sound. For my money (though it ain’t mine!) I would say you’d be a lot better off with something like a 50w per channel amp (max), when you could crank the volume up a bit and enjoy the full spectrum better. I currently have an Aiwa home system, giving 25w per channel (stereo) and I have never cranked it up more than 2/3 - it would blow me out the room! The rooom is about 13 foot square, so gives you some relative idea of sound level v’s space - in comparison to a car. In comparison to that, I also have an old Goodmans amp, which coupled with Wharfedale speakers, has a max output of 10w per channel - but that’s RMS rated, which means it produces almost as much sound as the Aiwa running at 25w ‘peak to peak’

If I’m not teaching you how to suck eggs, most sound systems sold to the public are ‘peak to peak’ where commercial systems are RMS rated. RMS = root mean square, which is equal to a  higher rated domestic amp. RMS means the average of the power produced - not the maximum. ‘Peak to Peak’ means the power developed across the highest peaks (full bass for instance)which is periodic, so the RMS system is pumping out more power on average per watt than a peak to peak amp. E.G. - a 10w commercial amp would equal a 15 to 20w domestic one.

The company I used to work for had a theatre sound division, and I was shocked when I discovered that cinemas running huge horn assemblies were working off a 10w amplifier - this was in the days when 35mm films were all the rage. The difference? high efficiency speakers! What we buy in shops is crap in comparison. You pay for power rating - not efficiency.

You are right on the 1F capacitor, but bear in mind that while this will take care of the power surge for a full bass hit, if you are one of the ‘gimee bass’ fans, then those full bass hits are arriving in rhythm, and if that’s fast, then the battery/alternator are working hard to keep the capacitor charged. You can slow down the capacitor charge by sticking in a series resistor, but then it won’t cope with a fast beat anyway. Lets assume your amp produces about 800w RMS - then it’s drawing 66 amps off the battery to do it! - The battery is normally 32AH which means it can throw out 1 amp for 32 hours, or 32 amps for 1 hour, and the alternator (if I remember correctly) is 45 amp max. See what I mean about power requirements? If you want to check, get hold of a 100amp D.C. meter, and stick it inline between the battery and the amplifier supply (live) - I have no idea what current it will draw at low output levels, but it’s got to be as much, if not more than the battery can cope with. My son had a good system in his Pug - but the supply cable for the amp was 6mm if I remember right, and the fuses were 100amp - - - - - The main battery cable ain’t much more than 6mm! His battery was a 45AH one. The amp size - can’t remember exactly, but it wasn’t much more than 250w (more than enough)

Going further with this - bear in mind the MX-5 has little to no sound deadening material, unlike most passenger cars. If the alternator and battery could handle your 1300W amp at full power, then the effect will be as much panel vibration as bass, and you will be amazed how much material you will need to stuff into every cavity to try and reduce that. You will then need forced induction to overcome the weight problem - - - - -

So - motto - lower is better! I hope that helps?

Valve amplification back then too? :stuck_out_tongue:

 

Yeah, you have helped, i was looking at some different amplifiers before since mine is broke for now anyway. And yes, 1300w will be the peak power of mine. I found a nice entry level 4-channel rockford fosgate amp with an RMS power of 50W per channel, that would do the job nicely, apparently the rockford sound quality difference is huge even from pioneer etc; with mine being a not so fantastic vibe, at 150 quid it may well be worth a purchase :stuck_out_tongue:

Just thought of a parallel to this - it’s like sticking a 7 litre V8 into a five, yes there’s lots of power there - but you won’t ever use it, and you will need a boot sized tank for the petrol consumption regardless! Plus - open up a 7 litre, and watch the body shake itself to bits - - - - -

On the Mk2.5, the alternator output is regulated by the EMS (Engine Management System) so if the load current is greater than the normal alternator current at idle, then the EMS should kick in and boost the revs to compensate, but it’s not instant, at least, not on mine. No way will it compensate for a high current draw though - it’s not expected or designed for with the standard equipment on the car.

 

 Yep - valve amps! But we were switching to solid state in the sound systems division. I imagine that the Theatre Division also switched not long after, though they felt strongly (with good reason) about solid state amps.

Cripes - this was forty odd years ago! A different time, place and planet - - - - - - Long live Rock and Roll! I play American Graffiti in the car, and watch the movie too when I feel nostalgic!

 

Once upon a time, an amp cost £1 a watt - - -  ha ha!

Some advice on a problem encountered in the cold weather would be appreciated.On the way home from work in the cold weather with the heated rear
window and aircon on, the Battery light illuminated briefly. i stop after which the car would not start.The RAC came and jump-started the car without any problem. With the
engine running they measured the voltage as 12.9V at idle and about
13.5V at high-ish revs. They diagnosed a “weak alternator”. Please could anyone offer any view on this? and where is the best place to buy a high power altrnator?

 

Greetings and welcome Margaret<o:p></o:p>

When he said a weak alternator, what that means is it is past it’s best and is starting to show signs that you need a new one, as far as I know that will just be a standard new one, not a high powered one, there is no such thing for these babies??? <o:p></o:p>

 

 Has anyone suggested checking your earth points/straps? If they are not clean you will not have a good power delivery from battery and alternator.

 

Hi Margaret,

What you haven’t told us is how old is the car - and which Mk. it is?  Aircon suggests an import (Eunos) so age can be difficult to define, though there are ways. As Mazda Mender says, there aren’t different types of alternator, only old or new/refurbished. When the RAC checked the voltage, were there any electrics switched on, like the aircon and heated rear window? Or headlights, radio etc?

Assuming the RAC guys meter is accurate, then the voltage measured is still higher than can be measured across a fully charged good battery - e.g.  12.6 volt, so without any electrics switched on, then there is just enough voltage available to slowly recharge a low battery, but as battery voltage decreases, thern the required voltage to recharge it becomes greater, hence the normal voltage from an alternator is 14.5 volts. What this means when you are using the car in winter is the electric load is greater than the available voltage from the alternator required to recharge the battery, hence the battery light coming on - indicating current is flowing FROM the battery, not into it. This why the battery finally gave up. Immediate solution? - get the battery recharged to it’s maximum state - that should be between 12.4 and 12.5 volts. If it won’t get higher than 12v, then it’s getting old, and will need replacing at some point, thougn immediately that’s not the problem. Next step - if you can afford it, is take the car to a good auto-electrician, or a good garage, and ask them to give a price on 1) a refurbished alternator, or 2) a new one. Also, what Marpar said bears consideration, ask them to check main earth points and alternator/battery connections, to make sure they are tight and clean. If you can’t afford it, or time is short, then there is another alternative, wear warmer clothes, and while you may need the headlights, do without Aircon and only use the rear window heater to defog it, don’t leave it on. A little inconvenience buys time, time = money - - - ! Get the work done when you can, next winter may be worse (heaven forbid!)