Im crap at changing gear. Help.

General Discussion Forums MX-5 Chat
2

People of MX5 OC, I come to you with a confession.

Im crap at driving my car.

I have owned it for just over a year. I love the car, I really do. It’s a 2006 2.0l Sport (LSD/6 speed box). It’s great fun to drive, but I have to confess, that I find a lot of my gear changes, especially when I’m revving quite hard, to be a little jerky and uncomfortable.

Now firstly, Im aware how precise the clutch and gearbox is and that it’s never going to be the same lazy clutch of a normal everyday car. I spent three months thinking the gearbox was knackered, when it turns out that my seat wasn’t properly adjusted…by just one notch(doh). But even though this improved things, I still cant seem to get it quite right. Most of the time, changing gear is fine (apart from the well known issue of the 6 speed box being a bit notchy and stiff especially when cold). But I find upshifting in the lower gears when revving hard to be very jerky and Im sure it’s just me.

Here’s a for instance; Im accelerating hard along a sliproad. So im in 2nd gear and decide to rev quite hard. Becuase I’m accelerating I tend to push the clutch in, change gear and lift the clutch quite quickly. But I often find that this cause the car to ‘lurch’ slightly as if braking and then there’s a jerk as I re-engage the clutch in 3rd gear.

What am I doing wrong? I figured that Im being too heavy and quick on the clutch and doing it more slowly does seem to feel a lot better - but when Im pushing on, I feel like my gear changes should be as quick as possible. And if I lift the clutch too slowly, I can hear it slipping a bit too much as it engages, and I dont want to wear it unneccesarily. I just cant quite seem to nail it everytime. The same goes for switching from first - to second gear. I can never seem to do it smoothly. This morning, I tried pulling away hard from a roundabout and not changing to second until I was at about 4K RPM - the result was very jerky.

I understand that this car also has a lightened flywheel - could this acocunt for jerky changes sometimes? Is the engine not carrying enough momentum to make smooth shifting easy? Im quite confident that the gearbox and clutch is in good condition - the bite point is low and positive. Im sure this is more down to poor balancing of throttle and clutch.

So, in a nutshell - am I just a crap driver with no finesse, or is there a technique/method to smooth shifting that Im missing? Would really appreciate your view if you drive a 6-speed and any tips or pointers you might have.

3

 Hi…there could be a couple of things for you to look at

Have you wide feet and shoes…the space between the pedals is narrow…so shoes/trainers that are wide could cause you to “catch” your feet against the pedals

Is your heel on the floor when you change gear rather than off the floor pushing the clutch in…if it’s on the floor it may come up slowly and less jerking with the heel on the floor…

Try “squeezing” your foot off the clutch when you lift off…imagine you have a soft sponge ball under your foot…and you have squashed it…let it up slowly allowing it to regain it’s shape slowly

Is your foot completely off the “gas” pedal when you change gear?..keep it off the gas pedal until the left foot is off the clutch

The more revs you have when changing gear can often make the gear change smoother…and snatching off the clutch in any car can make it “lurch”

The driving position in the MX5 is very “laid back” and can take some time to adjust too compared to most cars having a “sit up and beg” position…so maybe get used to the driving position first before you “hammer” it

Do you wear out clutches in your other vehicles…if you do I would suggest that you could do well to approach a grade 5 or 6 driving instructor who would only be too pleased to take you out for an hour to sort out your driving style…or indeed think about advanced driving lessons with RoSPA or the IAM who could help you

 

good luck James

4

Do you drive another car?

It takes a little time to adjust from one to the other, well I find anyway.

I seem to have had a similar experience as you are having. Yes I’ve tried all sorts of driving positions seat back and seat base. I’ve come to the conclusion really that it’s all in the action and timing really. My Mk1 5 speed was easier to drive gear change wise than my Mk2 6 speed. Yes I  sometimes get a jerky gear change and it’s a bit notchy when cold, I put it down to me not the car.

Take it on a quiet road and practice your action, fast and slow acceleration cold engine, hot engine. You’ll find out pretty soon what’s what. I read though that jerky clutch/gearchange can be a problem sometimes on the 6 speed with certain models. Do a search.

Mick

5

O/K - I don’t have a Mk3, and I understand the 2L engine has more low down torque than my 1.8, but seems to me you haven’t got the balance right , I would say you need to practice more at lower revs between declutching and revving . Going round an island in second or third is possible, and certainly increasing speed after that island you should be in third. Without actually being in the car it’'s not easy to say what you are doing wrong, but you appear to be either over revving when you shift, or not applying enough revs - either way this will cause the jerkiness you are talking about. It should be a smooth and co-ordinated movement between your two feet, remember always that when shifting up you are moving to a higher gear, so if your tendency is to keep your right foot down, declutch, and shift up a gear, then the revs will be too high for that higher gear. Conversley, if you declutch and let the revs drop, when you release the clutch the revs might not be high enough as you release, so again you’ll get a jerk.

My wife is a classic example of how not to do this, everytine she changes gear my head goes forward (or back) and while she hates going in my car - I certainly hate going in hers. Tell her what she’s doing wrong? - Not B likely, if I want to talk to her for the next two days - on the other hand, if I want some peace and quiet then I would certainly tell her! - It doesn’t pay however. :frowning:

Don’t try to force the car by speed shifting - till you’ve got the hang of it, unlike normal (Ughh) cars they don’t have idle engines, low down torque or a gear lever than moves half a yard every time you shift. Get the balance right and you’ll fall in love with the car over again, it can only respond to your commands, but remember that a five does it much better than most other heaps on the road.  You have to feel the revs, applying enough right foot as you allow the clutch to release, also when downshifting the same applies, except you will need more revs (to start with) as you are shifting down to a lower gear, but practice, practice, practise is the name of the game. Once you get it right, you’ll feel the difference, and from that point you are an upward spiral. I’ll be honest, I had around forty years between driving another sports car to when I bought the five - and it took me nearly six months to really get the feel of the car, your driving habits become jaded, and you have to get rid of previous ideas.

6

 

I do have size 11 wide feet and I have noticed that Im much smoother when driving in my comfy driving trainers than in my work shoes on the daily commute. But even though my work shoes are heavier and bigger, they still give reasonable pedal feel.

I actually found things improved when I started making sure my heel wasn’t on the floor - it gave me much more feel. There’s also the problem that in order to release the clutch fully, I would have to slide my foot back on the carpet; I’m not sure I can pivot my foot back enough to come off the pedal.

I think this is the crux of the problem. I think I am subconsciously trying to work the clutch too quickly. But then when I consciously bring the clutch up slowly, I think Im getting back on the throttle too quickly cuasing that ‘slipping’ before the clutch is full engaged.

I find the actual gear change much smoother at higher revs, which is why I think it’s the clutch balance I’m coming a cropper on. Im guessing that the higher revs also means more torque to manage smoothly.

I find the driving position very comfortable, but it’s more precise than most cars. As I said, I spent three months driving the car with the seat right back and thought there was something wrong - I was comfortable and could manage the pedals fine, but my changes and pulling away were terrible. Moving the seat just one notch forward felt just as comfortabale but placed my feet far enough forward that I had better control of the bite point and things improved.

My driving style is fine in other vehicles - never wore a clutch in my previous car (Ford Focus) and in general (modesty aside) I’m a very smooth driver with good clutch control. I just feel like there’s somehting I might be missing with the Mazda and it’s more precise mechanics.

Thanks for the tips though - I might try experimenting with my heel position a bit more and see if resting it helps.

7

 Mick, Gerryn - thanks for those replies. Soom good food for thought there. As you say, I think I need to practice more.

One thing is I find the car a bit of a chore to drive in traffic - as it’s the only car I have and use it for my commute (part of which is through town), there’s a lot of gear changing to be done at low revs - traffic lights, side roads, etc. This is where I find it most noticable, and I think its partly down to the 6-speed box; shorter ratios and its a pig to get into 1st unless you’re nearly at a complete stop.

When Im out on the open road, the car feels a lot smoother. This might also sound wierd but - Ive actually found Im a smoother driver with the roof down. The only reason I can think is noise - with the roof down, the engine noise is less noticeable in the cabin so I tend to be less aware of it and let the revs climb a bit higher before changing, smoothing the shifts. With the roof up and the engine noise confined to the cabin, I think Im subconsciosuly changing earlier as the engine sounds louder. Odd I know.

8

It certainly took me a couple of weeks/months to get used to the clutch, and some days seem worse then others Confused

But I’m much more confident now and have perhaps also lowered my threshold for what I consider an acceptable gear change Wink

It does feel like the behaviour of the clutch can vary on a daily basis but it probably also depends on exactly how you sit in the seat, if you are wearing a coat or not, which shoes etc… Even a small difference in position can make quite a big difference in behaviour. Some days I’m (for some reason) better at matching the revs with the gears, then other days. Maybe it depends on how much sleep you had  Stick Tongue Out It usually works best with quicker gear changes, not letting the revs fall too much or past the matching point.

However, at high rev shifts it still frequently feels like there is a bit of slip going on before it bites properly, even with the foot firmly Off the clutch. This also happened at Snetterton last year where at one point the clutch was cooked and started slipping all the time. Obviously it had been mis-used for quite a few laps in a row so probably over heated and luckily quickly seemed to recover in the pits. But maybe there was some permanent damage to it ? Cry  Nothing that affects every day driving though and there was no indication of it on Brands Hatch last month either.

9

pm sent DaiaBu.

10

 

Your experience sounds very similar to mine. Some days it’s great and the car feels lovely. Other days, I just cant cant change gear smoothly.

What you said about not letting the revs fall to far is exactly why I mentioned the flywheel. I feel like I might spend too long switching gears, in which time the revs have dropped and it’s harder to match smmothly. I might take the car out later tonight and have a bit of a play and see what works for me.

Andy - got the message thanks, and replied :slight_smile:

11

 Hi everyone, just a quick update.

Over the past few days I’ve been paying more attention to my driving technique and I think the main problem was my right foot. I wasn’t coming off the throttle fully before I was pressing down on the clutch. Ive been consciously making sure I am well off the throttle pedal before shifting when Im higher in the rev range, and this has eliminated the worst of the jerkiness I was finding when depressing the clutch, although at the moment its taking a lot more concentration on my part.

HOWEVER!

I was doing some reading over at miata.net and discovered this thread: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=240632

It’s 4 pages long, but in summary, the OP posted explaining that since he made adjustments to his clutch pedal, he has eliminated some of the problems he has been experiencing with this 6speed NC. These problems (quoted below) are exactly the same problems I have found with my transmission that I had previsouly put down to simplying being a character of the car - from my previous research, it seems that a lot of other NC drivers with the 6 speed have thought the same.

“I experienced the following:

(1) Unusual difficulty upshifting to second gear when cold, but better when warmed up. Inordinate crunching, and an extreme sensitivity to the direction in which the shift lever is pulled when cold, and even sometimes when hot. Pull the “wrong way” and one could not engage second at all. Double clutching the upshift helped when cold, but is awkward and annoying on a modern gearbox.

(2) Unusual difficulty downshifting to second even when warmed up; rev matching helped significantly. I always do that, anyway, when downshifting, but I doubt most do, and no one should have to in a modern synchromesh gearbox.

(3) Virtually impossible to downshift to first gear — cold or warm — when the car is traveling beyond a snail’s pace. It was just easier to come to a full stop before attempting to engage first, lest one bend a component in the effort to engage first while in motion. I dislike employing force on my machinery. If force, not finesse, is required, then something is amiss.”

These are exactly the same problems I have noticed and going by the thread it seems that on some of the NC cars, the problem may be that even with the clutch pedal in the carpet, the clutch is not fully disengaged and some torque may still be transmitted to the gearbox. This causes the symptoms above (clunky 1st/2nd/3rd shifts when cold, hard to downshift into first unless stopped, etc) and would also account for jerky shifts, where even though you think the clutch pedal is right the way down, there is still some clutch drag. It would explain why the bite point on the clutch is so very low as well; much lower than other cars I’ve driven.

The solution is highlighted here: http://www.miata.net/garage/adjust_clutch/index.html 

If you get behind the pedal, you can adjust the pedal/clutch play by turning the clutch rod which the pedal operates. The basic principle is that if you extend the length of the rod by turning the adjuster clockwise, you will essentially raise the bite point, as the pedal needs to be depressed less to operate the clutch hydraulics.

Obviously there are some things to bear in mind - adjust it too far and you will end up with a slipping clutch. However, given the amount of pedal travel I currently have, I am going to take a look at this over the weekend and investigate carefully.

Fingers crossed, but hopefully it will make a difference. Going by that very informative thread, others have tried it and found things greatly improved.

12

That sounds a darn good idea and makes a lot of sense.

Do let us know how you get on with the adjustment, but as you say, don’t go too far with it!

13

You mention that you speed up in 2nd then change to 3rd; had you considered changing to 4th or 5th even, depending on the circumstances.

It is the engine revs not the clutch (though it plays a part) which makes gear changing smooth.

You should also, if you don’t, try changing across the box, and not in a particular order, and, using engine revs (compression) to alter your speed slightly for differing road conditions eg A move from 5th to 4th on a fast road because the traffic hots up, or a complex junction. Not only does this slightly retard the car but also assists in preparing you mentally for the hazard ahead. The rev counter should not be dipping and diving too much so that the clutch is engaged on a running engine.

If brakes are needed they should generally be used first and before a gear change is attempted. What you don’t want to do is too little braking followed by a gear change and a hurried application of the brakes.

My MX5 a 2000 1.6 California does not have particularly comfortable seats (few Japanese car do have such things IMHO and they only ever seem to made by a single manufacturer) and yes the gear change can be notchy, particularly with a cold engine.

Lastly, remember that the MX5 is designed to be revved and offers little pleasure below about 5,000 revs; after which it flies along.


ps Most clutch wear is caused by using the pedal as a foot rest. It’s the thrust bearing not the plates which wear most often.

14

 Well, I adjusted my clutch pedal last night as per instructed in that thread, so I must say, the difference is amazing!

This morning, I rolled out of my parking compound, cold and the car actually went into second gear with no fuss whatsoever. Usually it takes a a lot of wrestling and coaxing to get it into second gear first thing in the morning. Not now!

This adjustment has made my clutch pedal feel so much more natural and comfortable, and my shifts are fantastic now - no more wrestling the stick between gears. No more lurching when accelerating hard along a sliproad. The change in bite point has made the car feel so much more natural and more like other cars I drive - rather than being not far off the carpet, it’s much more central in the pedal travel.

The car also downshifts much easier - it can still be a bit of a pain to get into first gear when rolling, but it does certainly go in easier. Before, I would almost have to be at a dead stop to get back into first gear, a characteristic which made urban driving a chore. The car is more willing now. I feel like Im driving it rather than fighting it.

As well as gears 1-3 being smoother to engage, it’s also much easier in the higher gears as well. I’d always found moving from 4th to 5th a bit uncomomfortable - rather than being a smooth upwards-right push, I always felt I had to guide it in deliberately. Now that the clutch is easier to manipulate, this feeling is gone and I can almost engage 5th with a quick natural flick of the wrist.

Some gears still feel a bit notchy, so my next investigation might be to try an improved gearbox oil. So far I cant find a good comprehensive guide for changing the oil though, so it may be something I leave to Freelance when I next vist them for a service.

All in all though, for 15 minutes of work, this has made a definate improvement. I would encourage any other 6 speed NC drivers to investigate if they are also suffereing from baulky transmissions. I only wish I’d known about this a year ago :slight_smile:

15

This sounds like one for the Mk3 FAQ, I’ll stickey it for the time being

16

That’s great news and must be such a relief that it wasn’t your technique at all!

Well investigated and as Geoff says, it should be stuck in the FAQs in the hope it will help others with a similar problem.

17

It is good practice (Roadcraft) to use the correct gear for the conditions but definitely not using gears in order to reduce your speed .  

Having said that I use techniques like heel & toe, matched rev changing and also double de-clutching and they are FAR from good practice Angry 

18

True enough but heel and toeing is a lot of fun and does smooth your gearchanges out Wink

19

 

Changing gear to decelerate all depends when you were taught to drive, as I was told a few years ago, driving instructors now tell learner drivers NOT to change down when approaching traffic lights (for instance) but to brake instead. - Which is why we constantly hear the screech of tyres these days approacing lights which have just turned red, and see cars running through amber and red signals - they couldn’t be bothered to brake - or just couldn’t.

Older drivers were taught differently, I among them, we were taught to change down when approaching any form of obstacle, e.g. approaching traffic lights, there’s not necessarily a need to brake at the last minute, if you are in a lower gear then you can cruise up to the lights, and if they turn green, then you are already in motion and can accelerate through the lights. People on here often insist that you don’t have to change down these days, they claim we were taught that because we had poor brakes, on the contrary I had discs on the MGB back in the 60’s and on the Tiger later that period, and it was a front wheel option on the Mustang I owned in 1965. Drum brakes weren’t a problem on most cars, yes they were subject to fade if used incessently and frequent hard braking, but they were good enough for city driving, or getting around generally, but as we changed down first, then there were hardly ever any problems. Odd incidents I remember in other cars, before I learned to drive, would not have been helped by disc brakes, accidents happen no matter what you drive - witness F1, with the best brakes in the world. - And note, they change down before a corner too - - - -

I clearly remember reading a report from the States, where an American driver lost his brakes in a race, he said afterwards “I decided to drive like the English do, using the gears instead” - he came second. Why do MX5 drivers on track days burn rubber (and brake pads)? Because they hit corners at speed, and slam the anchors on in the hope they will make it in time, whereas if you are in the right gear to start with, then a slight application of the brakes is all that’s needed. - - - Who is following good practice?

 

20

 I’m with you all the way on that one.