ND - Before, During, After Results 175map to 190map (plus exhaust)

This will be a bit heavy. Advance warning!

In short overview:
I had the 175map fitted and did before and after results (see below thread).
i just fitted the catted manifold and center section (so, 2x sports cats in total) and ran some more results
then applied the 190 map which was designed/meant for the manifold package.

more power has been made!

Now, for the geeky bits and charts.
As a quick recap - all of this data is pulled directly from the EcuTek software and datalogging. it is able to calculate engine torque in Nm based on the parameters it can see (airflow, fuel needed, etc). This makes this a fantastic tool for real-world testing to see for airflow/fuelling changes with major and minor modifications, or even changes to fuel type!
with the Nm captures, its just simple math to covert to torque in lbsft, and then into bhp. in exactly the same way a typical rolling road dyno would do. :+1:

As such, here is an example of the data. (and, this isnt all the logging points either! these are just the ones i have elected to track)


fun, right?! :smiley:

Worth noting at this point the similarities and differences:

  • all tests done with 99 ron fuel.
  • i do have tests with 95 ron, but i have not included these so not to muddy the data (separate topic this!)
  • all tests are done at full engine temp, after a period of motion (to ensure the intake air temps are around 3- 5deg higher than ambient at start of test)
  • same stretch of road on all tests
  • I do not have a pure OEM dyno chart, as at the time i didnt know about several parameters’ existence. so i have some data, but cant make a chart.

Ok so, first chart: 175 remap. stock car (only mod is/was a Colbalt backbox).

This next chart shows the ‘after’ of installing the BBR catted manifold, and center section. so i now have a 2.5" exhaust end to end.

what you can see here is a across the board improvement, everywhere.
in terms of driving, noise wise its near identical to OEM + cobalt backbox. having that cat still placed in the manifold is stopping silly high decibels. i believe there is some extra boom/bass at very low rpm such as driving through town. but, no difference at cruising speeds or when flooring it. minimal difference.
driving impressions, not much different. the dyno shows more power, but it feels pretty much the same. not enough of a bump to notice.
except.

except…
and this is where it gets geeky

except when i was doing power pulls, i was feeling a hesitation around the 5500rpm mark. the car was having a bit of a stutter/lurch feeling. it wasnt until i got back into the data logs and i saw why.
the ecu was closing the throttle (slightly) past the 5800 mark!

We have seen this before (see thread above). on the mazda OEM map, Mazda elected to limit the power and close throttle from around the 6k mark, meaning that 6000 to 6800 redline was a painful and choking experience.
Why am i seeing this happen again?

This explains why:

What you are looking at here is a Power Limiter in the map. BBR (well, EcuTek i guess technically…) have a parameter called ‘‘Torque Desired’’(Nm). what has happened is that on the 175 map, the exhaust is now flowing so much extra air that it has hit that Desired threshold, and the ecu is now backing back on throttle (and probably other parameters too, but i cant quite pinpoint) to ensure that Desired is not exceeded by Actual!
This is why i was feeling car hesitation past that 5500 mark.

again… Fun, right? :smiley:

So next up - apply the 190 map.
This is what happened ( i have kept the Desired overlay as in the above, so its a clear showing of how the new map is able to break to a new ceiling)

no change at all low to mid torque and power between those maps. mirror image. (which is good. gives credit to the repeatability of these tests), but as you can see the Torque Desired on the new 190 map is much higher and so the ecu is able to work as required to make maximum power.

Driving impressions on the 190 map
now it feels different! in two key ways - part throttle feels much, much lighter and responsive. BUT, i know now that this isnt due to the exhaust fitting, theres obviously something different between the maps. i’ll be doing my usual MPG testing over the weekend so will see any obvious changes on a 15mile run i do. but initally i feel my throttle input it far less for the same work.
full throttle - it pulls. :slight_smile: really nice.

Closing thoughts:
Whats got me itching, is the rpm limit. as a driver, it does not feel that its given up on power as it comes to redline, and the data supports that. I dont know what RPM the stock valve springs will safely operate at, but if the car is still making power then it goes to reason that the RPM limit should be moved to the right.
From all the tests i have done, the max RPM is different on the two maps as well. looks to be off by about 70rpm. (175 redlined at 7200, 190 map seems to be about 7130). not a huge gap, but thats why the dyno charts i have dont fully align at the end.

what is also very important - and probably needs to be on the top of everyones mind - if you go and fit a full exhaust WITHOUT a remap (from someone), then you are going to hit mazdas OEM throttle limiter. you will almost without doubt not make a single improvement to peak power!
There are some on here with more experience than me in this field. But i think this statement would be reaosnably true and accurate based on the data ive got.

if like me you are doing incremental modding, you need to also be aware of certain ‘ceilings’ in a tuners map.

Whats next
Ordered the Fab9 throttle body upgrade. this will be great for seeing if there are any flow changes. (its a 55mm throttle plate to a 68mm. big jump). from the few written comments and reviews iv found, its a positive driver reaction. but theres not any dyno data at all. so ill give it a crack.

short term, i might fabricate or buy a couple of air intake kits. i know theres dyno charts showing loss on power on some, and only 2 known to have made any improvement. but for this, its more a case of me being able to see real airflow changes. just experimentation.

longer term, i had been planning supercharger route. but i am now remembering my love for N/A. Cams are now on my mind more. :slight_smile:

Final dyno charts, putting it all together:
175 Map (before)
175 Map + full exhaust (during)
190 Map then applied (After)

Clean Chart:
175 Map (before)
190 Map (After)

Hope this was useful guys.
Ive got a ton of data and can present in various ways if theres questions or something ive overlooked.

4 Likes

I reallly admire your ability to do all the technical/maths bit. It scares the life out of me.

It’s worth having a look at the BBR cold air kit. I think they concluded that the standard air box was about as good as it was going to get, but that relocating the intake made a decent difference. It’s not cheap though for what it is.

I’m interested to see how you get on with the throttle body. I had a big throttle body on my NA as part of a cold side supercharger kit and the throttle response was fantastic.

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thank you. but its only tricky the frst time. now its just copy and paste :slight_smile:

i didnt take the cold air kit from BBR. opted out of that. mainly because i couldnt stomach £250 for pipe with a bracket attached. (DemonTweaks sell the pipe for about £15, to compare).

in terms of its use and viability, i am logging my intake temps as part of my live dashboard. when in motion they are approx 3deg up from ambient at the MAF housing, and then +5 or so when recorded at the inlet manifold.
theres little to be gained (or, dropped) there.
i would argu the main reason for this is that the oem airbox does not have direct exposure to exhaust manifold heat, and it already has a cold air snorkel to the front of the car.
so to replace the OEM with an open box or lesser ducting would be a detriment to intake temps.

sorry… off on a waffle there.
to your point…

i was just talking to @BlueAgave on this same vane.
the OEM intake is about 70mm internal diamter through. (but i havent verified the maf housing itself yet, which is the important bit). but the ND1 throttle body plate drops massively to 55mm. any aftermarket induction kit, in terms of power, is trying to make a brick swim until that TB is looked at.
on the OEM airbox setup, the other standout point i think to look at is the elbow connector. it has a HUGE pinch point! on both the inside and outside bends. (see pics).

i have seen chats on US forums about replacing just this elbow gains more BHP than all the aftermarket intakes do. might be exaggerated, but could be truth in there somewhere.

fun part is - for all the above, with the ecutek software i have ability to test it. without having the dyno issues of hot-swapping, costs, and suffering from heat soak while on the rollers.



2 Likes

I can believe how changing an intake elbow might make a difference.

It certainly does with domestic water/heating plumbing and extractor fan ducts.

With plumbing I always avoided using a “neat” little 90degree elbow for a sharp bend, if I could simply put a larger radius smooth bend on the pipe. Also removing any burrs on the inside of a cut end made a huge difference.

It didn’t save much in money, but it removed turbulence and made the fresh water pipes much quieter and the tanks filled quicker. Radiators maybe not so significant, but for the older boilers with a “gravity” thermo-syphon feed to the coil in the hot water tank it could halve the heat-up time.

Recently I installed a new 5" extractor system for hot (and maybe damp) air from my laundry/conservatory. But before finalising the design of fan position and outlet route I bench-tested various pipe configurations with assorted fans on one end and non-return shutters on the other. The angle of the dangle on the shutter blades gave an excellent visual on how much air was passing

A single 90degree sharp bend directly between fan and shutter was worse than three metres of straight pipe

A nicely tapered reducer from 5" to 4" on a straight pipe run was equally disappointing. Therefore the existing 4" hole in the wall had to go up to 5".

However a 6" fan feeding a 5" duct via a nice reducer was far less affected, and I think this is because the turbulence in the 5" pipe is less that that in the 4" pipe for the same air speed. But any bend was a disaster.

I ended up abandoning siting the fan where the heat was, but needing two 90 bends and almost two metres of pipe, and instead put it in the gas meter cupboard which was open at the top to catch the hot air near the ceiling.

I used this 6" fan, offset reducer and a short scrap of 5" pipe to the 6" shutter on a 5" spigot.

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Slightly off topic , I have the cobalt back box , how is it volume wise with the manifold and mid pipe ?

Great detail and thanks for sharing!

Is everything corrected for atmospheric temperature and pressure? That can significantly affect this sort of data.

The intake cam timing on the OEM map on the ND1 2L is the main thing that limits engine power past 6000rpm.

It’s not just a torque limit table that affect throttle closure, there are also acceleration request tables that heavily influence.

if theres been any volume change, its not enough notice. cold start is still boomy for the first 30 seconds, then goes quiet. flooring it still sounds the same. cruising at 60/70 still sounds the same.

Thanks for the reply , I had been looking at manifolds and mid pipe with CAT , the BBR mid is well priced compared to others and their manifolds get good reviews , looks like I’ll be saving my pocket money , cheers .

is it corrected for atmos pressure?
in short - i dont know. i do know it reads and collects Barometric data, as well as temps. my (limited) understanding of those Torque Desired tables means it has to calculate cylinder fill, which would include pressure, flow, and temps. (maf and map sensors primarily here, i think?).
but in short - how does this translate into the log files? im not sure.

as for the limitation maps, i dont seem to have access (for good reason im sure :smiley: ), i know you yourself have mentioned others, like gear ratio limiting maps too.
its a deep dark rabbit hole this one :smiley:

back to the correction tables though, i am getting quite accurate data day after day, test after test. but i have been purposely ensuring parameters like air intake temps are ‘flushed’ before power runs. so youve given me the idea to try and pulls after being stationary for a bit to see how 30 deg intake temps differ from 3 deg.

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no worries.
just know/remember ive got the catted-manifold fitted. thats the ‘noise eater’. if you went to a traditional aftermaket manifold without a cat then thats where things get noisy. :slight_smile:

Have a look at:

And your favourite weather app.

You will notice air density can fluctuate by more than the variation in your results.

Denser air = more oxygen molecules = more fuel can be burned = more torque can be produced. This is why dynos are connected to weather station data, and values are corrected as such.

Even if you deliberately heat soak the intake before a pull, temps will drop rapidly during the pull as the NDs intake is well designed. So, in my experience, this sort of data should be corrected for ambient conditions to allow a proper comparison.

Virtual Dyno (free bit of software) does a good job of this - BUT - does have a limitation in that you need exact repeatability to prevent skewed data.

Thanks again for sharing, and enjoy your tinkering :grin:

Edit: the intake system on these cars is more than adequate to flow sufficient air for the power the engine is producing, even mapped / tweaked. I’ve not seen or gathered any independent data to indicate or confirm that changing bits of pipework or fitting a larger TB adds power on the SkyActiv (when left N/A).

1 Like

:+1:
thank you. i’ll have a gander through these.

i can appreciate there are so many variables. i will need to get down to a proper dyno. but at my stage of fiddling, as long as i am getting some repeatable results before and after some work i can see changes(improvements, hopefully). :slight_smile:

what would be good would be an MX5 dyno day… to compare car to car, on the same day.

seed planted… :smiley: :smiley:

for the intake bit - yea that data seems to be lacking. except for data on intake kits. theres 3 dynos on those floating around, and all quoted to have lost power.
the biggest data for me is that some major mx5 tuners, who have access to their own dynos, dont even bother selling an intake kit. that speaks volumes to me.

but ive had chats with Roddinsons and BBR about engine flows, and options. both agree theres more power to be had in the head but wouldnt tell me where per say. (understandably). Roddinsons went ITB route and hit 260bhp n/a! (with additional internal work too) and that was @ 7k rpm. so theres definitely an intake bottleneck somewhere. BBR, to loosely quote a phone call, said theres about 10bhp to be had just from porting the in/ex ports (ND1). this specifically didnt include larger valves as the conversation went onto these after and their results.

fab9 in US are working on an ND variation of their aftermarket intake manifold. im keeping an eye on that.

Are you aware that it starts quieter if you put it in reverse?
If you take it out of reverse before it has finished the initial starting cycle it will go back to being noisy so there is a bit of a waiting game but thought I would let you know :slight_smile:

This is something I have thought would be interesting too, I know some shows (Isle of Wight Takeover and Ultimate Street Car - Santa Pod) have dynos where you can have your car run just to get a number

That car was for sale recently, not sur eif it sold! I am interested in the ITB setup it had on it, as I am sure others are too, as I haven’t seen a company offer one yet

cold start - i did know that one. but it always good to share. for me theres no sound increase so (still) no need for me to worry about that. my nearest neighbour isnt too close.

that particular ITB setup was £££, far far more than the typical s/c or turbo setup. so not cost efficient for any tuner (or customer). but that was in the context of the whole engine being redone.

MPG Numbers

I have a 15mile route that i can get a clean cruise control on. but the 4 times this week ive done the out and back, ive had some hefty winds up here. cant get a reliable reading.
so, still pending…
for example - on this route ive got 10+ round trips recordings now (pre 190) all 51-52mpg one way, and the same the other. very repeatable.
. i’m now ranging from 43mpg to 58mpg in each direction due to the winds. Bloody Scotland!

will get some data on it soon. havent forgotten.