ND - New Alloy time - Weight? Size? Gearing?

[DirtyHabit]

hey guys.

its nearly time for me to put my Recaro alloys with the Winter tyres on the shelf. I am looking at replacement alloys to wear summer rubber.
I have spent hours and hours now thinking about this, and going over various options - and exploring outcomes.
in short, i cannot make up my mind.
so please, chip in. gives us some views. lets shoot the breeze. no right or wrong answers.

I am (just about to fit) the BBR 190bhp setup. in the future there will be more power, clearing the 200bhp. (i was set on the supercharger, but i think i am now swaying more to the camshaft route).
suspension wise, got strut bars, coilovers (stiff), and anti-rollbars.

factors to consider for my application:

• i sit quite low to the ground. i can raise the ride height via the coilovers if needed
• i like to track weight of my car items. and wheels&tyres are a great place to lose weight
• my opinion of a fast car isnt how fast it gets to 60, its ability to stay at 60 into corners.

my personal opinions

• the 205-45-17 bridgestone is poor (grip wise). i didnt like it before nor after the suspension upgrades.
• before the winters went on, i fitted Nexen 215/45/17. they are a MUCH softer tyres (off the alloy you can bend them in half with a single finger). These were much improved, but still less grip than i was looking for. (also i have had both on the scale at home, these tyres are just decimel points apart on the weight)
• rubber grip in general is low on this car. understeering is easy to do (front grip), traction control kicks in often when the road surface condition drops a little. (rear grip).
• a fan favourite on some tyres is a ‘meaty’ tyre look (high profile). i detest these. i want to avoid a taller sidewall than oem.

For my tyre replacement, its also important to include the new Alloy too, as the dimensions here will affect the tyre options. For ease, i will use the Avanti Storm S1 wheel (as its a colour & design i can use) plus its very light. different options will use this wheel in various sizes.
I am also using the Nexen tyre weights (where possible) to keep things as apples to apples as possible

OEM Option
OEM Recaro alloy - 17x7, approx 19.5lbs (TBC - i will be taking this to the tyre shop for weigh in shortly)
OEM Bridgestone - 205/45/17 19lbs
Total - 38.5lbs combo

Option 1: ‘Simple Weight Upgrade’
Avanti S1 17x7 - 14lbs
Nexen 215/45/17 - 19lbs
Total - 33lbs combo
Outcome: much less weight. little more contact patch. little slower on gearing.

Option 2: ‘Max Rubber to the road’
Avanti S1 17x8 - 16.8lbs
Nexen 235/40/17 - 20.3lbs
Total: 37.1lbs combo
Outcome - little weight save. much bigger contact patch. near identical diamter to 205.

Option 3: ‘Better at everything…?’
Avanti S1 16x7.5 - 13lbs
Nexen 225/45/16 - 18.8lbs
Total: 31.8lbs combo
Outcome - Massive weight saving. more contact patch. reducing gearing by 1.2% (faster acceleration). little more sidewall (not what i was after)
*these wheels at 16" also still clear my Willwood biger callipers. **aaand these have a 35 offset, meaning increased track! (bonus)

All note all of these weight savings are per corner. x4 for real totals

you can do variations on the above options. but these are just what i would cal the most major thought points.

discuss. i need to bounce some ideas off people

racingbeateuropes website, which is where im getting the wheel weights from

MX5 (MK4) ND 2016-2025

rimstyle uk are really good for tyre weights
https://www.rimstyle.com/?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAhvK8BhDfARIsABsPy4icKuzBQtuQs_r2Wu3QnJUZIUOCqRiup9IpYkAcFLzu8claOvciuUAaAj2IEALw_wcB

[nlppan]

What kind of driving do you do with the ND?

[BlueAgave]

If you have understeer you need a good alignment.

Personally I think reducing unsprung weight is the way to go. Mazda cup cars in the US are on17x7½" rims with 215 tyres and lets be honest you aren’t going to go that fast on the road. Get some grippy tyres Continental/Michelin/Yokohama and you’re good to go. Imo

[Wardy5]

Personally I prefer the ND on 16s, and obviously you have that weight saving as well. I know that’s personal preference, and as you’ve said there’s no right:wrong answer here

But I don’t follow your logic on the 225/45/16 having more sidewall though? If you’re comparing it with the OEM 17" tyre at 205/45/17, the tyre height is near as dammit the same. The 16" tyre would be 7.62mm smaller in height in fact, by my quick calcs.

Cheers,
Steve

[Bol]

17x7 or 16x7 for me. Personally I went for 17s. Fractionally heavier but lots of tyre options, and I quite like the cartoonish oversized wheel look on the ND.

I’m more into unsprung weight reduction than ultimate grip. The wider the tyre the less light on its feet it feels (or at least that was my experience with my NA), and I like the car to be entertaining at legalish speeds.

[GarethC]

I’m on 17x8 with a 215/45/17 tyre. I’m happy with my choice, the car is driven HARD is turbo-charged and drives very well when compared to my setup with the Recaro wheels and 15mm/20mm spacers. I’ve got Nexens on our Seat Ibiza and don’t rate them to be honest, the Bridgestones were shocking, you can’t beat a set of Michelin PS5s or Goodyear Eagle F1s. Next time around I may be tempted to try 235/40/17 but it means a poor tyre choice and I’d probably need to go to semi-slick which is what put me off this time around.

[Beryl]

Couldn’t agree more. I recently had a goodly outing on an ND on 195 rather than the 205s on my NC. Lots of variables to fudge the issue but my takeaway was the car felt more playful.
My roads are tight and twisty and I am coming to the conclusion I may have too much grip for optimum enjoyment.
This is just an idea at the moment but started in the summer when on dry roads I just couldn’t drive fast enough to get the car to give feedback whilst also feeling comfortable driving into oncoming traffic.
What makes sense on the track may have too much influence on road cars?

[John_Aston]

Stick a set of Michelin Pilot Sport 4s on and get some more sleep ?

[DirtyHabit]

Thanks all.

what do i use my ND for?
‘fun’ back round country lanes, track couple of times a year, driving trips. (in process of booking Ireland as it goes.).

unfortunately, i find the grip limits on this car very often. not from aggressive foot to the floor driving. simply from taking various corners at the speed limit. (but, sharp bends). i want to be able to just turn the wheel without the need for braking. although, i have been spoilt from previous high performance cars.

the tracking alignment i have is the 949 racing ‘occasional track’. has -2 deg camber all round. caster recommendation was a bit extreme though. front is at about 6.5 deg (they recommended 7 if i recall) and that does cause rubbing on full lock (to the front of the fender liner). not major. but will get re-done when the next set of summers go on.

Wardy, you are looking at the total diamter not the sidewall, i think? the sidewall at 225/45/16 is 0.4inch thicker than oem.

i am not a fan of the ‘dancing’ with the car ethos. i dont see merit in reducing grip for fun. that same grip reduction could cost you one day for an emergency brake situation

i’ve always had good experience with Nexen. especially at the price point. but i cant see michelen 4S in anything less than an 18" wheel? ive had 4S and Cup tyres as standard on some other cars and found them to be brilliant. i would pay the extra to have these if they come in a 16/17.

I’m really swaying to the 225/45/16. the more i think about it the more im struggling to see any drawbacks. except it goes against my common mindset where usualy you go up an inch in wheel size. let alone down.

[BlueAgave]

You won’t find Pilot Sport 4s in the UK in 17" unfortunately although there are alternatives. Ive tried Cup2s but it had to be a really hot day to get enough temperature in them. Nexen nuff said!

With castor at 6.5⁰ you should not have rubbing at all!

[DirtyHabit]

my use case is a bit different though, which is why i have the rub. ive got winters on which have really wide shoulders (doesnt curve like summers). im also quite low. i cant remember where the car settled but im about 105mm off the ground if i recall. pushing that tyre quite high up in the arch.
it didnt rub until the winters went on.

when looking side on, the front wheels are really, really off-center (high caster to the front).

i think the mazda default was about 5deg if i recall? which would center it in the arch. either way, when the summers go on i’ll get it re-aligned to suit.

@BlueAgave not a nexen fan either?
ive looked across all michelins. i cant find anything in a 16" less than a 50 profile. boo.

theres some great looking semi-slick style options @ 225/45/16
Yokohama Advan Neova AD08RS looks good. but realistically, it’ll be the nankan ns-20 (traditional summer).

[DirtyHabit]

Actually, now i am delving more into tyre reviews…

the options for the 225/45/16 look awful. some of the worst rating ive seen on tyres (well, i guess someone had to be bottom).

ok. so that would mean i’ll be throwing away grip due to bad brands/tread designs.

back to the 17" options then i think…

[DirtyHabit]

just found RB have a lighter option (just about).
14lbs Storm vs the 13,6lbs Blizzard. i hope this comes in black!

Advanti Blizzard 17x7 +40 4x100 Sparkling Hyper Dark Wheels

ooo, a quick googly has the Blizzards in Black, with a 7.5J, 40, with a 6.4kg weight! (14lbs)
this looks like a winner for the wheel! the extra 0.5inch wide will make me happy

[BlueAgave]

Castor is 8⁰ standard

[Bol]

They look a great spec. That would be my choice if I was heading where you are with the car. They look good too.

[nlppan]

i am not a fan of the ‘dancing’ with the car ethos. i dont see merit in reducing grip for fun. that same grip reduction could cost you one day for an emergency brake situation

Don’t want to persuade you to not follow your own wishes. But on the other hand, the higher speed you carry in corners, the bigger the disaster the day you do crash. One of the reason’s I’m specifically not looking for monster grip, especially as I want to play with her tail. Quick in the corners or monster fast, doesn’t really matter to me at the moment. The more speed I carry in the corner the less inclined I am to play with her.

[Beryl]

I’d go for your sixteen inch option. I noted recently that the Lotus Elan the MX copied was on 15”. It may have been the tyres availiable ‘At the time’ but apparently Lotus tried to get as much movement into the suspension and that must have included the large tyre wall they specified?
Looking at a Ford Focus RS today. It has a perfect cosmetically thin gap between tyre and wheel arch. I wonder what percentage of this is driven by looks?

[John_Aston]

The Elan which inspired the MX 5 was the 1962 original , not the 1989 M100 . The latter had FWD and 15 inch wheels. ‘Proper’ Elans ( Lotus Type 26 ) weighed 680kg and ran on 4.5J x13 wheels , and 5.20 crossplies or 145. and later 155 radial tyres .Period tyres were typically 70 profile , and not the silly rubber bands most sports cars now use . The 70 profile wasn’t ‘large’ in period - it was the norm .

Despite its modest power and narrow wheels the Elan was - and is - formidable on track. I enjoyed watching a 26 R hunt down and humiliate a pack of V8 TVRs and Cobras at a wet Silverstone Classic a few years ago . It remains the best small sports car ever made and even an MX 5 is big and overweight in comparison

[Beryl]

Good info. It makes the MX look gross!
Always fancied a Lotus 7 but motorbikes were much, much cheaper; probably as much fun and had somewhere to put the girlfriend too!

[DirtyHabit]

Its only a quick mock up, tried to find some black alloys at the same angle as this pic so i could 'shop them in.
do i go for black? or do i stick with a deep silver when replacing the Recaro alloys?

also ive sent out messages to RacingBeat to see if they can source those 17x7.5J Blizzards, in Black. if so will take about a month to arrive, so will make spring