Additionally, an old saying I remember goes - Any system is only as good as it’s weakest element. And in a lot of cases that is the bits in-between the units - wiring. Un-shielded power leads, weedy inter-connects and speaker cable that looks like lighting flex off the 10p/metre roll in the local home improvement store.
Hmm, interesting hearing about the attractions of the flickering, flashing, blinky-lights - or absence of them, and the difference between vinyl and CD etc.
Ideally (a powerful word), one needs no equalisers, no processing; just feed the recording through to the perfectly placed speakers and enjoy the experience in a quiet non-echoing listening room (padded cell?).
Unfortunately life is not like that, nothing is actually ideal, and in the analogue world the speakers are the weakest link in the system followed by the stylus and its pickup system. Compare these with the electronics which can be made so perfect we could never tell the difference, and microphones which were fantastically good even fifty years ago and have only got better.
I was one of a small group who proved this in a very informal and unofficial test a couple of decades ago at work, my minor contribution was three sets of amplifiers (pair of Quad 2 valve amps, homebrew Texan-like amp, homebrew TDA2030 IC based amp) and some tape masters I had recorded of choir and orchestra using non-equalised microphone mixer and stereo Nagra IV-S. The speakers and amps provided by others and work varied from very, very basic cheap and nasty domestic to state of the art professional monitor systems costing thousands.
At the time we were actually investigating how DAB compared with FM, and I could identify the DAB every time regardless of how much they artificially reduced the monitoring quality, simply because I could hear the noise gate working on the DAB killing the subtlety of the source material. Others had similar opinions. There was major political pressure to get the system (we all hated it) out into the public, so it was suggested we could hear it’s defects because the professional monitoring was too good, and not a reflection of the domestic environment. Which is why we tried the unofficial assortment one evening. We could still hear the difference between the digital and the analogue, even on the cheapest weediest nastiest system, even when we had added loads of noise and distortion to both ‘received’ signals before they were sent through the listening chain. DAB2 is a lot better, and OK in a car, but in the living room I can still hear it working, even with my old ears.
The interesting thing about the unofficial test was how a clean source with no inter-mod distortion (crucial) or compression in the system allowed us to have a superb stereo image, such that we could pick out the individual singers from a chorus of forty and the musicians from an orchestra of twenty. A lesser playback machine with the same tape allowed us to hear the group of sopranos or altos, but individuals - no. Many of the loudspeakers were really quite bad, despite being expensive, and the high quality listening studio helped us identify the good from the bad very quickly indeed.
However, and this is the point of this post, it made almost no difference which amplifier we used, apart from some with inflated power rating claims not being loud enough! We could tell enough of a difference to rank them, but it was much more difficult than ranking the speakers, and almost all had the stereo separation indicating the clarity of sound.
Of course nowadays with low-bit-rate MP3 compression wrecking most music very few of us have ‘Golden Ears’ any more, unless they spend a lot of time listening to good, live, non-processed music, eg classical concerts. So quality is moot.
I’ve never downloaded digital, and I still buy CDs because they do not have digital compression, that recording system is better than our ears. If I transfer my CDs to my earplayer or USB for the car I use at least 256KB WMA because it is sufficiently less damaged I can’t hear it working. Unfortunately DAB uses fewer bits and a different, worse algorithm.
The early CDs that sometimes gave digital a bad name were usually transcriptions from tape masters intended for vinyl, where the noise floor is quite high (-60db ish), and gave in to the temptation to exploit the vastly greater dynamic range available (96db), even though most consumers listening environments can only offer up about 75db dynamic range, meaning that quite a few recordings were butchered to lose the subtlety along with the tape hiss, much like the DAB does. Modern recordings are a lot better, and fit the CD appropriately.
Oh well, the way my ears are beginning to lose the top end, for me it won’t matter much longer.
I’ve had a varied working life, which I won’t go bore you with all the details, but the best part was working for a sound company in Toronto (Canada) called ‘General Sound’, they had two divisions, the theatre (cinema) systems, where they could supply anything from seats to projectors and sound systems, and the P.A side, which I worked in. We used mainly, an American company named ‘Dukane’ for which we were holding the Canadian Franchise to operate in Canada. They had a huge catalogue, with not only their own products, but we also carried Electro-voice, Shure and other well know names in our stock. Keeping a long story short, I started with them as an installer, and after a break while I worked for a sister company, doing CCTV I went back to GS as a designer and estimator for sound systems. As such, I designed many systems, and the proudest moment was when I built the main racks for the new airport building at Toronto International Airport, for which we as a company, received many accolades. Before then, I designed and won estimates for many local sound systems, varying from schools, colleges and universities, to baseball and ice hockey stadiums. Testing them afterwards was often my task, and we always used both voice and records to do that. - Many amusing stories to tell, but this post is not about that. The point was music reproduction, and we always tried for the best sound around. That’s why I loved that job, not everyone’s cuppa, but for me, the best job ever.
Several systems I was always remember, like one we installed in a new shopping Mall (center to yo’all!), a High school restaurant - also used as the school auditorium, where we had the best ‘walk through’ sound I’ve ever heard, and the basement of a church, which had so large attendance they used the basement as space for the overflow. That also was added to my ‘remember list’ as the sound was like a voice from God, reproduced from the sound system upstairs. (made the hair stand up on my head - literally.) We used column speakers a lot, for stadiums and various other large venues. These were built to our own design, cabinets made by a skilled local cabinet maker, and speakers (Cheapies) from another local company called Marsland. These, frequency-wise, were all over the sound spectrum, but coupled together in a column, made as a good a sound as anyone else could provide. The one that took my breath away, - If I can still spell it - was a synagogue, ‘Beth Tzedect’ (not sure that’s correct) where they ordered a pair of Gold EV mikes, and rejected them because they were only gold plated - “We said Gold, and that’s what we meant”
That synagogue is rated the ‘Richest in North America’. - They raised several million dollars to help Israel, with one supermarket owner giving one Million on his own. You’ve never seen anything like it, an attendee had to buy his or her seat, with the front rows being occupied by local millionaires, No - I don’t hate them, one of my best friends was of the faith. I even had the honour of being invited to the families Passover fest, at least I think it was!
Gping back to columns, we checked one against a more expensive column supplied from Altec (California) - who supply A1 gear to the music industry per se.) Five of us made the decision, our column stood against the Altec one, with hardly any perceptible difference. Ours proved equal to the task. Amazing, but true. I even had a mini set made for my own system at home, all sold later when I left Canada with many feelings of regret.
I did return for a while (one years leave of absence - unpaid)and later rejoining GS I found out they had lost the Dukane Franchise, and replaced it with another franchise, incomparable with Dukane. The work load was still the same as when I left a year before - untouched by anyone, and I spent a week appeasing clients as to why we had done nothing. Disgusted, after three months I left, and joined another outfit who had acquired the Dukane franchise. They were totally incapable of carrying it for any length of time, and did little work in the field, so after some deep thought, and trepidation, returned to the UK, where my talents were not required. - I might have got a job in the big smoke, but no desire to work and live there. Sound systems at that time (1960’s) were if little interest to anyone, only short term rentals. Made a few appeals to various owners, one in Sheffield seemed unaware of what I was talking about, and told me to “Go South, young man”. When I mentioned ‘Language labs’ he said “What’s that?” Airports, auditoriums, schools? “Ehh - we use bells”. (yeah, right.) End of magic career.
From this wealth of experience, I will say that the best speakers i’ve ever heard were those manufactured by Altec during the period when J B Lansing worked with them, he’s acknowledged in the States as a leading sound designer, and anything that came out of Altec during that period was more than a match for anything made in the UK. I say that with honesty, not from the ‘America’s best’ POV. While at the last place, we went to Philadelphia for a weeks seminar with Dukane, and their final demo was using their new 20W per channel stereo solid state amp with a pair of Altec columns with ten inch speakers and two high end horn speakers, common in cinema sound systems. The columns reproduced mid and low end sound and so amazing to watch (no grille cloth) that they moved several inches with each low cycle frequency. My mate ‘Doc’ at the time, said - in awe “That’s the sexiest thing I’ve ever seen”! The record used - the Harmonicats, who had a base harmonica a couple of feet long (saw them on TV) and that low end was so real it was like being in a church, with a church organ reaching similar low end sounds, I even bought the record later, as a test of my own gear. Never achieved that same low end, but it’s still there, just less prominent.
Thank you Gerry an interesting read from someone who was at the sharp end of the industry back in the day, I appreciate your input to this ever expanding topic!
Barrie
Richard, thank you for your contributions I’m in awe of the expertise out there! This really illustrates (to me at least) that there are some really clever folk on here, masquerading as mx5 enthusiasts! You guys have elevated my initial piece about an old mini system that I’d rescued to a different level!
Barrie
I can’t resist having a look on eBay at the little AIWA system I picked up I’ve noticed a few differences between mine and others for sale. Now mine, I know, is a 1979 model purchased in early 1980.
Barrie
Great! Lovely feeling isn’t it!
Ever wondered why LP’s are called “albums”? The answer goes back to the days of the 78rpm recordings. Any long piece of music, classical usually, or film soundtrack required several 10" or 12" discs, each one of these had it’s own sleeve which were bound together, like pages, into the form of a book or “album”, and that name (or misnomer) was carried over to the multi-track 10" and 12" vinyl LP. We had the soundtrack of Disney’s “Snow White & the Seven Dwarfs” in the 78rpm album format from the early 1940’s which unfortunately eventually succumbed to rough treatment.
No.
However, this does not prevent me from considering myself further enlightened.
I’ve just posted up in the link below with a cry for help?
https://www.mx5oc.co.uk/forum/yaf_postsm760985_3D-printed-parts.aspx#post760985
Not sure if anyone can assist in anyway?
Barrie
Sorted the pseudo rack handle issue, (thanks to those that offered assistance on the separate thread I started) bought another complete system with handles fitted! I mentioned previously that AIWA sold a wooden cabinet housing or rack, very hard to find but guess what? The new system I purchased just happens to have this with it. Needs some TLC/restoration but I’m up for that. The second cassette deck will be going in for service and belt changing in the New Year and I need to check out the rest of the components and give them a good clean up! Happy days.
Barrie
A couple of pics of today’s acquisitions,
Cosmetically very nice, including those faux rack handles not had chance to set it up properly but I fear there may be more to sort with this one than with the oiginal one. Still, very happy with this purchase. I’ve already stripped down to its component parts, the wooden cabinet housing, which is very hard to come by so hopefully worth restoring? Found several labels under the grime which are actually in good condition so will be refixed once completed. The cabinet was made by a company called Visual Displays based in Leicestershire back in the day, don’t know if anyone’s heard of them? So not actually an AIWA item, although I’ve seen plenty of pictures of this cabinet on the internet during my searches.
its lurking in the background of the first pic but here it is on its own,
The chipboard is covered in a very nice, thin wooden laminate, a bit like Formica. Not like the modern furniture panels that have a foil type covering. The support pieces that hold the black grille (seen in the pic) are bowed and have come apart at the ends where they are pegged. So I need to sort that. All the screws, you can just about make them out in the little plastic bag, are slotted wood screws, no pozidrive here the actual fixings for the side panels are little Allen bolts that screw into a nice metal fixing. Managed to save them all, so will clean up and refix with some epoxy. I’m in my comfort zone here, unlike the 3D printing idea
Barrie
Looks good Barrie, and it’s always nice to have back-up units!
Here is an internet pic of the cabinet. The components are held in place by spring steel clips at either side, quite nifty.
Barrie
Why is it Barrie you seem to always make me end up spending my good Scottish Pension Groats?
Thanks to you, I’m off to Stirling HMV to “look” at LP’s.
You have a lot to answer for.
Now, now, don’t go and do anything daft and actually ‘buy’ something any tips how to convince SWMBO that my second set is a good investment?
Barrie
Easy.
Just like all the 5 bling from your youthful past, tell her it’s essential safety equipment to facilitate complex cable management.
Her eyes will likely glaze over at that point, With luck, and you will receive the required sanctions to carry on as you normally do.
[quote=Bettabuilda]
Now, now, don’t go and do anything daft and actually ‘buy’ something any tips how to convince SWMBO that my second set is a good investment?
Barrie
barrie , tell Dawn she’s had too much sherry and is seeing double
Tell her you need one to test the fidelity of the other.
Just a thought. Does anyone remember. or get into the foray into Quadrophonic sound of the late '60s, early '70s (not the later variants of the '90s onwards) ?. From memory I think it died because every major record manufacturing group had their own version, which was incompatible with the others, and no one would back down , bit like the VHS/Betamax video wars, but in the record wars none of them became the industry norm.