I’m looking for technical help or recommendations on: Track day brake pads
Hi all
I do an annual trip to the Nordschleife and now that I’m getting round a bit quicker (but still not by any means fast) I need a set of decent pads that will give decent braking when hot, and get me over there and back.
On my last trip lap 1 gave me decent braking, but laps two and three (with 15 mins break between laps) there was barely any braking power there. I had to use engine braking to get around the track.
The current pads are Mintex.
Typically I drive over there from Bristol, then do about three laps per day (TF) for three days, then drive home.
Also visiting WW2 sites and other places of interest too.
So that’s a good 1000 miles of road driving and about 120 miles of track driving altogether.
I’m not after the absolute last word in track brakes, I just want there to still be some braking power there when everything is very hot.
Any suggestions for some pads that will tick all of the boxes?
If available for your car I can fully recommend PBS pads. If available I would go for the “Track versions” which are a fast road/track pad. (They also do pure track pads that they call “Race pads”) I also would change my brake fluid for I think its Motul 660 DoT4.
I just recently put PBS track into mine (on Mtec standard rotors) tbf they’re way more aggressive for road use than I’d normally choose and it’s taking me a while to get used to the abruptness and noise. And for cold wet road conditions they’re frankly just a bit too unsubtle and too powerful on the ramp-up for me to really like. Definitely a compromise. I wouldn’t like it if this was my only car, I think.
But that’s just a natural side effect of what they are and the tradeoff for how frankly brilliant they are when it’s dry and you’re cracking on. Especially on standard sliding singlepots which are brakes I’d normally throw in the bin. I’ve not had them out on an open track yet, just single laps of a sprint track so I’ve not been able to really hammer them but they’ve pretty much blown my mind so far. So I’m pretty much happy with the compromise overall but if I was dailying it through the winter I would definitey change the pads for that.
TBF I am super picky with brakes and my taste is a wee bit unusual, I like a really subtle but powerful brake with a no grab and a long rampup and really light engagement, which most people find a bit soft and weak feeling (the power’s there but you have to ask for it). I guess this comes from my motorbike days. So I’ve spent a ton of money on brakes over the year, my subaru has had more spent on that than the whole mx5 cost! And I won’t lie, those for me are just far better, they have track power and icy day tiptoe subtlety. But for the price, and on otherwise stock brakes, I am so impressed by the PBSs.
(I did think about getting the Race pads and just swapping them more often for a gentler road pad but I love having the same road setup for track, zero adaption time, it’s so nice going into the first bend of the day knowing exactly how everything but the tyres works)
Been trying to square this circle between effectiveness on track and durability when touring for my NBFL. When I go to the Ring next week I’ll be going with standard OEM S-VT size pads and discs which have done 1/2 a dozen sprints, a 40 lap trackday and 4000 miles touring this summer and not expect more than 2 laps with an hours break between them as I managed last time two years ago.
Interesting to read the Mintex pads are not much better at the Ring, so in the light of these comments I’ll try the Total brake fluid, new OEM discs and PBS Track pads next season starting in April with a view to changing the pads for OEM at the end of the season before November, if the pads and discs last that long.
I found the road/track versions fine for daily use. I would estimate that they last approx. 50% of what OEM pads do, so they should be more than OK for what you have planned. On the car I use them on (2013 Fiesta ST running circa 240 bhp) as the car does not really use much back brake I have the same type of pads on the back and after 20,000 miles (and about 6 track days) that are showing negligible wear.
I used the Ferodo pads on 2 track days and by the end of the second track day they had started to crumble at the edges. I was very disappointed especially as I used to work for Ferodo.
I have a bit of track experience with a few types of pads so I hope I can help here.
Before I turboed my car, I used EBC yellowstuff and they were fine. Once I turboed the car, they lasted about 3 laps at Bedford before overheating and I got some serious brake failure.
After that incident, I switched to PBS ProRace pads after having them recommended to me and the difference is night and day. I have used them for the past two track days I’ve done and I have had no brake fade at all, even when doing hard laps for 20 minutes straight. I’m not a racing driver, so I tend to lean on the brakes a bit more than I should and they have performed faultlessly.
Some people report that they take a little while to warm up and are therefore not safe for road use, but I haven’t experienced this. From my experience, they are just as good as the EBC yellowstuff from cold, and only get better once you get a bit of heat into them. I really cannot praise the PBS ProRace enough.
In terms of longevity, I have done about 1000 miles all-in on the PBS pads (a mixture of track and road driving) and there is plenty of life left in them. However, they are a bit faster wearing than other pads I’ve used. I can’t imagine wear will be a problem for the mileage involved in your trip.
The PBS pads are a little bit more expensive than the others on the market (maybe £20-£30 more per set), but brakes are the most important thing to upgrade (along with tyres) so its money well spent in my opinion.
I know PBS do other compounds that (might) be slightly better suited to you. But I can’t comment on their performance as I haven’t used them.
I considered getting a big brake kit after my brake fade incident, but I won’t bother now as the PBS pads are so good.
Lots of good advice here but the reality is that there is so much more to brakes than the pads. Yes, you can improve the brake responsiveness with different pads and maybe the fade resistance too but the reality will always be that if you want to hammer the things regularly you do need to look at an upgrade to the whole system. The brakes on your car are a compromise of many factors (including cost) and three hot laps of the Nordschleife were never on the agenda when Mazda specified the brakes. Manufacturers spend much time and many testing km before deciding on these things.
You did say that the brakes are fine on lap 1 but then there was “barely any braking power” on laps 2 and 3, so the brakes are up to the job until excessively hot. Do they return to normal after they have fully cooled?
Obviously a fluid change is a given as your loss of brakes could be the water in the old fluid ‘boiling’ as it’s hygroscopic. Regular fluid changes (every 2 years in ‘normal use’) are recommended, it starts to degrade as soon as replaced but this wouldn’t be apparent until you overheat them.
Grippier pads will produce even more heat (that’s how the brakes dispense with the energy lost when braking) so if heat really is the problem those symptoms could happen even sooner. I’d look first at trying to keep the brakes cooler, eg if there are good quality vented discs available for standard calipers(?) maybe they’d be a better investment. Are there simple ways of improving airfow over the discs? I haven’t looked into this as the standard setup is fine for my road use but you need to look at the cause of the symptoms.
I’d also be concerned about improving the fronts and leaving the rears as standard. Yes, the fronts do probably 75% of the braking but the car needs to remain balanced; at least too little at the rear is likely to produce understeer which is much safer than oversteer. The issue is that you won’t be able to do any testing until it’s for real on the track.
Sorry if this is all too obvious; I’m not trying to be patronising but after a lifetime in the industry it does concern me when people start playing with things like brakes and expecting one change to resolve a more complex issue.
Enjoy your trip and do bring it (and yourself) home in one piece!
Thanks for your response, and valid points raised.
I appreciate that a full upgrade will give better results.
I change the fluid every spring and last year I changed it about a month before heading to the Ring, so it was more or less new.
From what I understand, the standard brake set up is not bad. I think on previous mx5 models there was a big brake upgrade option which Mazda decided to make standard on later models, so that’s a bonus.
The front disc protectors do have an air scoop thing, I believe.
My front discs are Mtec grooved and dimpled, and while they aren’t for racing there will be some unswept areas which will hopefully help with cooling.
From what I gather the piston seals on the caliper can become brittle with repeated track use.
Thanks for your kind words about safety, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of going on a track.
Thanks for this insight regarding the brake cooling, when I last went to the 'ring my brakeducts had all been savaged 20 years of rust and almost completely disintegrated, it will be interesting to see when I go back to the 'ring next week if the same oem brake set up lasts any better with the new oem ducts I had fitted front and rear over the winter.
Been thinking about this route for many years now and come to the conclusion it would probably be cheaper to get a trailer and a single seater if I was to start throwing that kind of money around.
Out of interest could a car fitted with those sort of brakes cope with being on a 3000 mile tour through Europe as well as a couple of laps of the 'ring ?
