Supercharger or turbo on mk1 1.6 110bhp version? Help

Technical Area Forced Induction & ITB
2

Hi

After owning my 5 for the past couple of months and after sorting out my LWSC problem, [:(], I have decided that the car needs some more oomph, for the use around the track and B road fun.

Which is the best option for producing 150-170bhp on a stock engine, and the best value for money-on a budget u see.

Also, where are the best places to purchase them from and do they require specialist fitting(i’m a fairly compentent amature mechanic)

My budget is £2-2.5k tops, inc fitting if needed, or self fit for less.

Please help.

Cheers in advance

Alex

3

OMG, Someones asked the Turbo v S/C question again, Run for cover, It’s gonna get messy !!! LOL.

I’m going to get splinters in my ar$e here by sitting on the fence, BUT… [:D].

The First few replies tend to be along the lines of “My supercharged '5 pulls like a train… You NEEEEEED to get a supercharger” and “My Turbo '5 feels like I’ve been crashed into from behind when it comes on boost… Turbo it !”.

Somewhere down the post someone is going to ask “What do you use the car for?” Then it all starts again Because very few who went down the turbo route are going to say “You know what, I think I should have spent my £2500 on a supercharger, I’ve made a massive mistake !”, And vica versa with the supercharger owners. (I know, I know, I’m making huge sweeping statements here, Ain’t I?)

You used to get a turbo because there wasn’t really a solidly defined ceiling to how much power you could get from a kit, You could just keep upping the boost till you were happy (Or it went bang). A supercharger on the other hand was restricted by how quickly you can spin it verses how much heat it generated so the ceiling was that much lower, Also they were seen as “Old technology” because turbo design advanced so much quicker, But now partially due to company’s like Mercedes and BMW’s new mini using superchargers, The technology’s pretty much been refined to turbo standards.

Turbos tend to give more power but are a bit “all or nothing” (You don’t want it coming on or dropping off boost when your going quickly around a corner), The S/C’s tend to be a lot more linear in there power delivery so you don’t get this problem, But you might loose to a turbo along the straights.

I’ve drove cars (Not Mx5’s) with both and my honest view is that if you want your car to feel like it’s had a bigger engine fitted go for a supercharger, But if you want to have the feeling of a large rush of power then go for a turbo.

(This is just from personal experience, But why do I still get the feeling I’m going to be shot down in flames for sharing it… LET BATTLE COMMENCE ! [:D])

4

Also worth a read,  http://www.mx5oc.co.uk/forum/forums/p/421/775.aspx#775

5

 Here’s 6 pages of “discussion” from the old forum

http://www.mx5ocforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=60467&highlight=

Go for your life

6

Thanks peeps,

I think SC will be what i’m after as im not greedy and i dont want to exceed the 180bhp mark. Linear power curve is better than the turbo rush and the lag.

Next Q.

What kits are good? are jackson racing kits any good?

Cheers

 

7

Ermmm, Well… Yes, There doesn’t seem too be much else out there. If you feel brave though you could build your own kit using a Rotrex supercharger (http://www.rotrex.com/index1.htm). I love there design, It’s got all the benefits of a S/C without most of the heat issues… Unfortunately they don’t make an MX5 kit [:(]. 

8

 

I’ve got a JR on my '90 1.6 and I love it. Drives like it’s got a v6 under the bonnet, make 146BHP at the wheels, so about 170 at the flywheel. Thats about 50 bhp over standard. Very simple install, but if you go this route factor in a decent fueling/timing solution into the cost. I use a megasquirt P+P and it is very good.

Here’s some stuff about my setup

May 16th 2008
Supercharger fitted by Danny Irvine
Jackson Racing M45 supercharger kit, plus full standalone plug and play ECU (MSPNP). Other bits include:
•    Jackson Racing BBK “Big Boost Kit” crank overlay pulley (gives 10psi)
•    Innovate LC-1 wideband oxygen sensor and controller
•    4x Denso 330cc injectors with new O rings (swap straight in)
•    Bosch throttle position sensor (bolts onto standard throttle body without modification)
•    Plug and play harness for TPS
•    Plug and play harness for air intake temp sensor
•    fully programmable ECU comes with two 4 bar map sensors (one for barometric correction, good for mountain runs) and has been modified by the manufacturer for the Bosch TPS. Everything is tuned and ready to go but it is still under warranty if you need support. The ECU plugs into the standard Mazda loom and nothing has to be cut or modified. The ECU has wideband O2 feedback, datalogging with autotune, launch control, flat shift and heaps of other features.

I have sacrificed a standard TPS to create the plug and play harness, so to fit this kit you won’t have to cut any wires or do anything irreversible to your car at all. Everything has been done properly, no “band aid” solutions have been used.
•    Hey Geoff, I haven’t put my car on the dyno since fitting the kit but the tune I am running came from a car with an identical setup and it made 148hp at the wheels at 5.5 psi. I am running the 10 psi pulley so it would have to be more than that.
•    Had the car on the dyno at Toowoomba [TAS]
•    145.6 HP, 108.57 Kw at the rear wheels
•    S/C nose pulley 77.5 dia

  • [IMG]http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j183/gwa_2006/BHPTASPerformanceToowoombaSmall.jpg[/IMG]
 

9

 I looked into this quite heavily and also decided on a supercharger for the same linear power band and no lag etc.

choices Jackson racing or P5 hotside or coldside superchargers…and phil keeps hingting at a homebrew kit the puredrive charger kit.

on a standard 1.6 you will see @160bhp

start adding things like a I/C bigger injectors smaller pulleys and yo could push it to 180bhp.

and if lots of power is your dream then ditch the 1.6 and fit a mk2 1.8 in 140bhp straight off…a cheaper option.

 

In the end ive decided to spend my money on trackdays so my skills(and my overall speed is higher)

 

Alan

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Also take a look at fastforwardsuperchargers.com based in Arizona for a different approach. Drew has one of there’s and is chuffed to nuts.

11

 I think opting for the Supercharger route and completely discounting turbo is shortsighted.

With the OP’s budget a turbo can be had that would rival a similarly equipped SC and, more importantly, the upgrade path turbo is significant compared to SC. FMII turbo’s for the 1.6 are running a safe and reliable 12psi or 230bhp - if you think you will be happy with 160bhp or 180bhp, think again, because you wont. Boost is addictive and your car can handle more boost so why limit FI when you don’t have to. It’s often said that 200bhp is about where you want to be with an NA. SC will fall short, a turbo will barely be breaking sweat.

Oh, and that SC whine [*-)] how do can one hear the exhaust above that sewing machine din [;)]

I have a greddy turbo, performance cams, standalone ecu, fmic, boost controller, WB02 etc etc and still haven’t spent anywhere near your budget (fitted) Currently at 7.5psi (IC not fitted) I’m confident an M45 equipped SC wiouldn’t see which way I went in normal world driving. The boost controller and the small turbo almost makes lag neglible as the car starts boosting from 1500 rpm and maximum boost is held, courtesy of the boost controller, to redline. I’ve also got a Torsen and R888 tyres so there’s no problem with boost upsetting the car mid corner.

Bang/per buck turbo will win everytime for your model year. If you can blag a passenger ride in a car fitted with SC/turbo you’ll have a better idea of the driving characteristics of each and therefore be in a better position to decide.

12

Funny you should say that as if found this on funkypower site.

http://www.funkypower.co.uk/catalogue.php?make=MAZDA&model=MX5-EUNOS%20ROADSTER&year=&level1=FORCED+INDUCTION&level2=TURBO&level3=TURBO+CONVERSIONS&id_product=1929

The reason why I only want a low powered 5 is that I’ve had faster and own a much faster car, but i’m after a balanced, quick + fun car. The standard 5 is fun but needs more power for sure. Plus I dont want it to blow up after 1 year or a couple of hard track days-as this is where the car is used.

Is the greddy kit any good as above. as the supercharged option is over £1500 more expensive?

Anybody with a turbo or sc in Kent that I could catch a ride with???

13

Looked at fastforwardsuperchargers.com

I’m going to try and keep the parts etc within the uk, in case of delivery/parts issues. Cheers for the link tho.

14

 Best to phone Russ at http://www.mx5mad.com/ they were selling the kits at a discount price recently. Do lots of reading. the US sites and the old OC forum are great as is mx5nutz.com, miataturbo.net etc etc.

Just to give you an idea of what’s involved, look at the spec sheet of this car;

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&item=220379851824

Now, after all that work/expense the car is running 180bhp. A turbo would be reliably running 300bhp with that amount of engine work and that ECU. The point isn’t about the power more to do with the limitations of the SC.

 

 

 

15

I see your point of view. lol poor guy, he prob could have bought x2 s2000 for that price.

16

My turbo installation was £500 (second-hand Greddy kit) and my IC installation £200 (Ford truck IC, some pipes and far too many bits of silicon hose).  I’m running 5.5psi of boost so it should be about 155bhpish at the crank. I don’t really need the IC at that level of boost, but it can’t hurt.

Fueling is just AFPR, timing is retarded. No fancy ECUs of anything. I’ve had a solid year of track abuse (competing in the British Drift Championship is way harder on engines than track days) and about 4000 road miles and no problems at all.

Loads of people would rather spend more for a more complex solution, just for peice of mind, but I am totally happy with what I have. I’m sure I could get more power out of it with just turning up the boost a smidge, or getting some kind of ECU solution and turning up the boost a lot, but I’m happy with the performance I have and the little turbo noises.

It hurts to see people spending more than my entire car cost just on an air pump, but then I’m sure seeing my intercooler held on with just cable-ties is equally painful for other people.

17

lol, this is true.

Re the BDC, do you know stiggy, he’s got a pinto powered starlet, its red.

18

Yep,  I know Stiggy, and the Mighty Starlet.

Awesome car, fantastic driver - and he gives free tuition to newbies at Norfolk Arena drift practice days.

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He is a crazy driver, but a nice guy, small world…[:)]

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Hi Geof  I have just read your advice to a fellow member could i ask your advice too,i have a 1,8 mk1 ive fitted a jr sc with power card and boost pulley,i have no ic, standard injectors,and standard fuel pump,i was getting very bad dettonation at 9psi even with the timing at 6deg bftc, so on advice from moss i booked her in for a dyno run, the same one you used,he managed to cure my det prob with timing at 4deg but told me that i needed a proper ignition system as the pc was no good at high psi my air fuel ratio is very low at less than 10 so iam running very rich especialy on boost,could you give advice on a good system, he quoted me a system at about £1000 fitted and mapped,after i came round? i thought there must be a cheeper alternative on the market.  Bipes do a add on system but dont know if its ok or not.   thanks for any advice, ps still feels good to enter the dark side.[:D]